New member, feedback requested

Hi folks, I have just registered, motivated to do so after auditioning a pair of ML Summits at local dealer. I am in the market for new speakers and am trying to hear everything that is available locally before I buy (and I do need to hear first). My room is largish, 25x20, and I currently have a decent set up with high power BAT SS amp, but I crave resolution and soundstaging which my current Legacy speakers really do not provide in sufficient detail.

I listened to the Summits less than 24 hours after spending a few hours with the local Wilson dealer (Watt Puppys were my choice there, good but....). The Summits really did seem to match the Watt Puppy on many levels but the dealer was using really good front-end with the Summit (Audio Research CD7, LS26m HD 220). My reservations with the Summits really came from listening to rock. On jazz, chamber, orchestral, blues, folk, they sounded really pleasant, detailed, and musical. But on hard rock (Deep Purple's Purpendicular album with Steve Morse on guitar) the speakers seemed to have a problem...the bass sounded about a half beat behind the music and the mid-bass down lacked finesse and control, I felt the sound sort of lumped into a boomy mess, an effect I have not experienced on other systems or speakers.

I know there is a popular myth that ML speakers cannot handle rock (and I am talking the music, not the volume, I listen relatively quietly) and this audition seemed to confirm this for me but I guess I am hoping it was just the room and the woofer settings......the dealer wants to try again, and I want these to work but...but.....I listen to everything and I will not accept a speaker that determines what I can listen to, I want it all.....so, is the Summit up to the task of doing it all or is it really a great chamber,classical, light jazz and acoustic music speaker......honest assessment welcomed. and thanks for this site, my brief few hours browsing suggest this is a group of music lovers like myself --

Somehow, I cannot believe how the Summits would lag with bass, it's faster than most any fullrange speaker I've heard so far, or atleast as fast.

Try the same recording on the WP8, see if its the recording that's poor.

Something is wrong with the room or speaker placement/adjustment. I can play anything I want on the Summits and they sound fantastic top to bottom. In fact, just to show some friends how my system can play loud and clean, I throw on some Bass Mechanic stuff and they stand there with their mouths open in amazement that these speakers can do what they do for their size. I have no problem playing Pink Floyd Dark Side of The Moon well over 100db and it Rocks.

My dealer is also a Wilson dealer and the only two speakers I would consider, besides the Summits, would be the MAXX II or the Maggie 20.1 with Two Rel B-1 Subs. The WP 8s are not enough of an upgrade for the money. And I have spent a lot of time listening to all these speakers.........Steve

Hi Patricia and welcome. I listen almost exclusively to rock and the Summits will rock. I listened to the WPs in all of their iterations and liked them. I do not believe they sound enough better to justify the huge difference in price, but if I had money to burn I would probably buy a pair just to be able to brag I had them. I can make my Summits sound just like you describe by adjusting the bass level controls, so I am thinking that is what you heard. I don't think you will be unhappy with either the Summits or the WP.

It's definitely not the recording, I've heard it on everything, including the WPs and it's fast, alive, and fulll of great instrumentation; on the Summit's it was not so.

Patricia,

Adjust the bass levels, the dealer doesnt have it set correctly. This is why the Summits rock (no pun intended)... the bass is customizeable to each room. You can't do that with the WP8.... you will have to rely purely on your room treatments and speaker positioning to get the bass right on those WP8 if you do end up with them in your listening area.

Patricia,

Welcome!

Actually I have never listened greater sound in the audio shops compared to my listening room. I think it is of couse because such shops have to prepare for many kinds of SPs not for ML. I think buying audio equipments is the starting point, so it's very important, as you know, to buy the equipments that have the possibilities we can get the good sound in our room. I think ML's SP has the value for you to make efforts in order to get better sound.

I love such SPs with much reality. So I am making much efforts to get it after buying ML and will still continue this from now because I am getting better reality. As for bass, it's my next assignment to solve in my room and I am happy with this because there are many ways to get it.

Shuji

Patricia said:

It's definitely not the recording, I've heard it on everything, including the WPs and it's fast, alive, and fulll of great instrumentation; on the Summit's it was not so.

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Welcome and where in TX are you? We have a fairly large and growing contingent here on this forum. I am in the Austin area myself.

I agree with the others. If you feel there's something wrong with the low-end, I'm almost positive its something not set right. My summits are in a 16x22 room with 10 foot ceilings, the back end 3/4 open to the kitchen, and an 8 foot opening to the hallway at the left rear. These speakers fill that room, and I only use 2-channel with no separate sub for music.

Patricia,

Welcome to the ML Forum! I'm sure the kind folks here will offer all sorts of help, opinions, and pointers that will help you in your decision whatever it may be. We've got a great group of very knowledgeable, educated, and informed people here...

I completely agree with "stesom" as to the problem you hear with those Summits at your dealer. It's either a placement issue, a problem with the room's acoustics, or the bass levels need adjusted. It's definitely NOT the speakers (the Summits will ROCK, when properly set up) and it's not the recording. From what you've described about the front-end, it's not a problem there either--AR gear can be an excellent match for the Summits.

If what you hear is your only problem with the way the Summits sound, I'd say that in your own home, with a little work with placement, they will sound excellent, providing you have a suitable front-end. And compared to the Wilsons, the Summits are a bargain for the quality of sound you'll have. Plus they are a LOT nicer looking...

Good luck in your search. Properly set-up Martin Logans can sound heavenly, and no matter which ML you go with, I'm sure you'll be happy with them for years.

--Richard

If you want bass get rid of the tubes on the botom end ! One word Krell!:music:

how many hours are on the Summits you listened to? Have they been broken in yet?

C.A.P said:

If you want bass get rid of the tubes on the botom end ! One word Krell!:music:

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C.A.P. Good thought, but the Summits already have their own amps for the low-end.


And Patricia: :welcome:

I also concur that well set up summits will do justice to any kind of music.

In store demos usually leave a lot to be desired, Unfamilar components generally rooms full of other speakers in the way etc. You get the idea. For the kind of money you are getting ready to spend I would insist on an in home demo or a reasonable return time.

The summits that I have heard all sounded very good not of the traits you describe.

As it was stated earlier comparetively they are truly a high end bargain

x-over problem

Hi Patricia and welcome,

I totally concur with the others. X-overs were set wrong. I listen to all genres of music except CW and Rap (no offense intended for those who like this type of material / just not for me) and the Summits will do justice to anything, if set up properly. From what you describe, I would guess one or both of the x-overs were set to high.

From my perspective, having the ability to "tune the bass" using the two x-overs is one of the very compelling reasons to consider purchasing the Summits.

Good luck!

GG

Patricia,
I won't even pretend to know how the Summits compare to the Wilsons but I will say this - with the dollar amount involved you should be able to arrange an audition of either speaker in your home from the dealer. After all, it's your head equipment that will power them. A lesser (for auditioning purposes) but still legitimate request would be to be able to bring your equipment to the dealer.

Dear Pat. It will be hard to find a person at this forum that will second your initial impression of the Summits. Owning a pair of ML's is like being in love, just wait, you will see. Once you go ML, you can never go back
Tom has a point, the Summits really needs long break in. Had mine since december, and they're still getting better after 700-800 hrs.
Except for Thomas Dybdahl I don't listen much to jazz, barely any classical, so besides the occasional pop for my wife, and Spongebob movie for my boys, theese speakers ROCK! Oh yes they do. You must try them at home Pat, and please let us know what you think. Enjoy!

thanks

Well thank you all for the quick and very positive feedback -- yes, I know you have all drank the cool-aid but I think you may be on to something that is fixable - namely the room and woofer settings. Actually, they were surely not too high, I had turned them down just to get a sense of their impact on the sound. IF anything, I may have shelved various parts of the spectrum which resulted in uneven bass, the net sound then appearing somewhat off-beat on fast sections. The dealer told me he adjusted them back up and moved the speakers back a few inches and they now sound great so I will go back to check. THIS is why we need dealers and why I will happily buy from him at a price more than I could get on A'gon, if go with the Summits. For the record, do I have any wiggle room on price with a dealer? And should I insist on a home audition? Most dealers I have spoken with do not offer one at all and seem to make a face when I ask!

.

I'll add onto Gordon's post by saying that in addition to LOTS of acoustic Jazz, classical, and every sort of rock from Hendrix to The Donnas, I occasionally slap some Snoop Dog, Dr. Dre, Dwight Yokum, BoCephus, and Allison Krause in the CD player, and my Sequels seem to be able to keep up with everything I throw at them. That funky gangsta s#!% will knock the grills right off your teeth, and the country and bluegrass I listen to is as tangy and stringy as a bowl of cheap spaghetti...

It most certainly IS a myth that Logans can't handle rock (or other electrified) music, when properly set up and driven by the right front end. While they might not loosen your fillings like a pair of Cerwin Vegas or Klipsches driven by a Crown amp, the bass that Logans make is a LOT tighter and realistic than those sort of "frat house speakers". MLs might lose out on pure decibels, but they are head and shoulders above the crowd in terms of true musicality...

--Richard

Wiggle room = 10% or so...