If it was your cash.......

Here's my dilema; after 3 years my Unison S6 tube amp went bang, and as it was an ex dem (and sadly a very tatty example) I've waivered about having it repaired. I've stuck my ancient solid stater (an Aura Evolution) back in the system, and while it clearly tells me all the reasons i went to tubes it also does rather better bass via my Mosaics than the Unison managed.

Now, my next upgrade was due to be a pair of Vantages! Yes, I know that makes me the tortoise to Joey's hare but hey! I'll get there.......

So to the question - if it were your cash, and assuming you're happy with your source components, would you a) blow the budget (of £6000) on some serious amps & make do with the Mosaics for another 2/3 years..........or b) buy another *reasonably priced* amp, and get the Vantages??

I'm open to second hand, and I reckon a rather nice Audio Research/conrad-johnson pre/power could be had (or just about a pass labs power & something cheaper on the pre).................or at the other end something like a Prima Luna Prolugue 2 (Kt 88's & 40watts).

I've got my own leaning here, but I'm quite intrigued by this question - I was brought up the "spend it all on the source" mantra of the eightys, and I'd love to hear any views you guys have?

Greeting, Magoo:cheers:

ps...please bear in mind I'm in the UK, and MLs cost in £££s what USA get in $$$s (grrrrr)

Around here it's probably more of the: Spend it all on the speakers, type of crowd

So I'd recommend the Vantages and a lower cost amp.

Agreed. Vantages are a no brainer. I did the same thing. All my money on Summits and I scraped up the rest ending up with a run out model Audio Research preamp and a preowned Proceed power amp. Twelve months later I'm getting ready to upgrade my power amp...

I just did something similar upgrading my clarities to summits. I spent the bulk of the budget on the summits and got a good but probably a bit underpowered amp.

If that were my money, I'd be the proud owner of some slightly underpowered vantages.

Keep the Aura and get the vantages.

Try it out.

With it's powered woofer maybe you don't need a ton of power

-Allen

If it were my money, I would upgrade my speakers to the Vantages now, and start saving my money for a lower priced tube amp to feed them later.

Agreed with all of you!...go for the Vantages...they are very friendly with any good amp, it does not matter if the amp is old...what matters is quality watts than quantity. The sensitiviy of the new Vantages allow the use of low wattage power amps and the impedance it is not big deal, due to only a very high frequency it drops like a brick to a very low...almost 1 ohm @ 20Khz, but how many music is here at this frequency? Trust your ears and choose the one that you like most. Long time ago I was a specs man...not I read it, but truly I don´t matter because I had founded more musical goods with less spectacular specs. Listen first...but listen the music, the musical instrument(s) and how the musician perform for you at your own place. Listen the stage, the size of the instruments, one next to the other...as an example, listen the size of the cimbals and the drums against the size of the piano and the double bass at the DMP record Quality of Silece by Steve Daves. Listen track No. 8 and then track No. 2. Also play live recordings, these kind of material will provide a good judgement for stage and tonal balance. Don´t use too many instruments at the same time. Your ears will tell you why it is better to have less. This does not mean that you can´t play big orchestras, of course you can!...play a piano, and listen how easy you can understand the left hand...not only the right hand...this is not easy for any speaker...but for ML sound it is!!!...with the knob for the bass control at the Vangates at 35Hz, you can tunned your room for the stand waves and take many bad resonances and clean them very well...for the money on the Vantages, it is the best buy!!! Happy listening,
Roberto.:cheers:

magoo said:

Now, my next upgrade was due to be a pair of Vantages! Yes, I know that makes me the tortoise to Joey's hare but hey! I'll get there.......

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Mr Magoo, Good day ! Don't worry about the 'tortoise' bit, for the Vantages, paired with a quality sub and proper room acoustical treatments can easily perform with or BETTER that of a Summitt system, with cash left over !! This is an asolute no-brianer in rooms of 300 sq ft or less.

I'm in your position exactly -- I had the choice between new electronics and older (Quad, NOT ESL!!!) speakers, heard the Vantages and was smitten. Since then I've had a few pieces on loan, including the beautiful McIntosh MCD201 and MC275 but financial considerations have meant I had to retreat back to my trusty Quad 909 and an ex-dem tube preamp. Here's the bad news: the Vantages never sounded with my "real" kit as sublime as they did with the borrowed McIntoshes. Here's the good news: they still sound great. For whatever reason, the Vantages strike me as quite a magical design in that they sound good with good kit and astonishing with astonishing kit but even with an older NAD integrated they sounded good enough to keep. I don't have huge amounts of cash to spend on HiFi in a given year so I've ended up doing one upgrade at a time. Last year the Vantages, this year a CDP (MCD 201 or Rega Saturn) and next year or so amps. This limits the financial hit and also it is to me anyway quite a bit more interesting, since I get to think hard about each change and since in my speakers are a stable platform. The nice thing about the Vantages in a small or medium-sized room as that they can sound so good that they are in a way upgrade-resistant; some here will disagree no doubt but for me they are about the limit of what I can see myself spending on a system and they will respond to even very high-end gear. When I was listening to these and the Summit I heard them with a pair of MC501s, and MDA 1000 front end and an incredibly expensive tube preamp. They were amazing but in no way did they seem to limit the electronics. So, to bring a long-winded reply to a close, I'd say go for the Vantages and either keep your amp or find an equivalent with good driving ability used that you can sell on without losing too much later. And then upgrade when you can. I do love to read about the HiFi exploits of those with unlimited funds to invest but this is a site with a lot of music-lovers and the Vantages are supremely musical with even quite modest but sensibly-matched equipment. IMHO, anyway.

good luck,

k

Well the call has been made to release the cash, now just a week or so of waiting for the mystical banking system to move it

I'm with all of you, having heard the Vantages I know thats a speaker I'll have in the system for years (hell, if i win the lottery they'll make lovely rears to match the summits at the front), but in my room, Vantages are probably the better bet anyhow. There was an article in HiFi + recently where assembled this system

* Wilson Audio Duette, Bewitch A30(a 30w valve amp costing £999) , Consonance CD-120 Linear*

and it (in their ears anyway) rocked. This all seems so far removed from the source first logic of a while back. It does make me wonder (and fear) for both UK & US hifi manufacturers though, all the amps I could afford will have "Made in China" on them! Quads ESLs are made there too now, and they are about as British as you get.

:drool: :drool: :drool: Now I want Vantages.

If you decide to go the ARC route, here is my opinion. Having owned many different versions of their components, I would recommend their newer stuff. There is an almost undefinable musicality that the new ARC equipment seems to have. I'm referring to the LS 26, REF 3, REF 110 (or 210) component types. BTW, I read almost all of the British hifi mags and in many cases find them superior to their American counterparts.

Do what I did, blow it on the speakers and let the rest follow!!

Magoo.. nice to see you move to the ESL! I remember when I first came to this club, it was me and you comprising much of the Mosaic club!

Joey

Joey_V said:

Do what I did, blow it on the speakers and let the rest follow!!

Magoo.. nice to see you move to the ESL! I remember when I first came to this club, it was me and you comprising much of the Mosaic club!

Joey

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Thats a pretty decent memory you have Joey! I've got to say I've remained extremely happy with the Mosaics + 30watts of EL34 power, and I'll almost certainly stay with valves this time; choices include the PrimaLuna range, probably the 3 (preamp) & 5 (KT88 power), which would keep things flexible for further upgrades, or possibly the Cary Audio SLI-80 Signature Integrated (the hot-rodded version from Upscale seems to be available over here), or the Rogue range. Although a pre/power would be nice & also flexible, if I add speakers which need power, I'm rapidly running out of wall sockets!! At least I have the blessing of a better half who loves her music too & leaves me to get on with it

Thanks for all the replies......yes, they all confirm what was already the plan, but its nice to feel I'm not totally loopy for going this route. The Aura really has to be replaced (mostly cos its been living in my step-sons bedroom for the last few years, and hell, he aint happy right now) I'm deetermined at least one of that generation knows the more to sound than Mp3's!!!

Regards & :cheers:
magoo

magoo said:

possibly the Cary Audio SLI-80 Signature Integrated (the hot-rodded version from Upscale seems to be available over here), or the Rogue range. magoo

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Hi,

Congrats on a great speaker!!! Quick note on the Cary SLI-80 -- this is a great amp but I'd try before you buy with the Vantages. Cary specs it at 40/80 but it never did close to that when I demo'd it with stock tubes, with which it drove but did not quite control the Vamtages. HOWEVER, this amp is a tuberoller's dream, and playing with the output tubes (EL34, 6CA7, 6550) can change the sound, and power output, quite dramatically. Some dealers will have demo tubes in stock to experiment with. All of which is to say, with the Cary and, I suspect, the PrimaLunas which are quite flexible, the amp you buy may be several amps in one.

best,

k

kirkawall said:

. Cary specs it at 40/80 but it never did close to that when I demo'd it
k

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Yeah, Hifi World measured the stock one as 25w/16watts which seems a vast difference, and makes me a little suspicious. I'm also unsure whether it would be better to have an amp set up one way or the other (ie triode or linear), rather than trying to be all things to all ears. But the Upscale version seems promising, and as you say, tube rolling opens up possibities I think. In particular, EAT KT88s get a very good write-up in several mags over here. Certainly my experience with the EL34 Unison was good with some cryo Svetlanas.

There is still a small bit of me scanning for used Summits & a repair man thou

Greetings, Magoo

Well after some furthur soul (and used ads) searching, I've done whats probably the most sensible thing - got the Unison repaired! It had simply overheated - sadly my own stupid fault for moving it to a bottom shelf on my rack But not very expensive to sort out. In the end it seemed like I wasn't going to achieve much more with the cash I had available, and I also feel I'd rather be able to judge the vantages in an overwise unchanged system.......although I suspect upgraditis will strick again soon The weakest link is probably my phone stage, something I expect vantages will reveal a lil more than my mosaics.

Still waiting on the damn banking system thou, so still a few days of dreaming to go :cheers:
magoo

magoo said:

I expect vantages will reveal a lil more than my mosaics.

Still waiting on the damn banking system thou, so still a few days of dreaming to go :cheers:
magoo

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Magoo....

Understatement of the month.

Well it's been what seems like an eternity since I've posted anything... been hanging out the Audiokarma -- McIntosh board.

In any case, I've recently changed my position on purchasing audio equipment. Before, I would have agreed with the masses and said get the speakers; however, my current thought process would be to put your major investment into your amp. Your amp(s) is like the foundation for your system and they play an important role in your overall sound. A great amp will improve the overall presentation and should be able to survive multiple speaker upgrades. Recently, I listened to multiple Mc amps through a pair of KEF's new 205 reference speakers. I started with my 207, then went to the 401 stereo amp, 501 monoblocks, and finally 1201 monoblocks. The source was always the same the only change was the amps. The differences were dramatic. With my 207, it sounded good but in comparision it sound tight with a very narrow sound stage. With each step up in the food chain it became more relaxed and open with the 501's being the biggest improvement for the dollar. Don't get me wrong the 1201s were better but not twice as good. And since they're twice the price I'd need a bigger improvement before pulling that trigger.

So here is another take with no right or wrong way to approach upgradeitis.

In case you're wondering, the Mc dealer didn't carry Logans so couldn't listen with them but for my purposes the KEFs worked just fine...

taylode said:

In any case, I've recently changed my position on purchasing audio equipment. Before, I would have agreed with the masses and said get the speakers; however, my current thought process would be to put your major investment into your amp.

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I think it's safe to say that for us, the thing to do is put all your available money into upgrading whichever component you feel needs it. Repeat. It's also acceptable to purchase new types/brands of source components, "spares," and "second systems" as needed to keep the checkbook at as low a level as feasible.