Your thoughts and opinions requested

I am about 2 weeks away from moving into the new house and am in the process of making final decisions regarding equipment for the dedicated home theater / audio listening room. I have picked out a front projector (more on that later) and have the speakers (Summit, Stage, Clarities) and amplifier (Pass Labs X-350.5) (for the main two channels) in place. I am also in the process of deciding on acoustic treatments. But the big decision I have to make now is which surround sound pre/pro to go with.

I am vacillating between getting a good (competent) pre/pro for movies/multichannel and spending some extra bucks on a great tube pre for two channel . . . or getting a really nice higher-end pre/pro for multi-channel that will also do a nice job on two-channel. On the "lower" end I am considering the Anthem D1 or the Sunfire Cinema Grand. As for the higher end, I am looking at the Meridian G68 or the Theta Casablanca. I will be buying used, but there is still a three to five grand difference between these two levels.

I really want to have an excellent movie/multichannel surround sound experience, but I also want to ensure an audiophile-quality two-channel setup. I would love room correction processing and I desire future upgradability. I have no need for video processing (my projector has a good processor). I am curious if the cost difference for the higher end components is worth it for the better quality sound for movies / multichannel, and whether they would provide a sufficient two-channel experience for the money. I would appreciate any thoughts and opinions you all have regarding any or all of these choices.

I purchased a Casablanca III after visiting a few high-end installations that focused on Theta gear. The Meridian was also a consideration but with the exception of those units found in the showroom, I've never run across one in the 'real' world.
The CB3 is an expensive unit and almost certainly requires an installer to come out for the initial setup. Being card-based (like the Meridian) it is very flexible as to hardware configuration and probably has more system configuration options than any pre/pro on the market.
If purchasing used, I would caution you that it will likely be more costly to upgrade a CB1 or CB2 to the current version than to just go out and pick up a CB3.
If there is anything specific about the Casablanca you would like to know just ask....

Tj

If you don't need video processing why pay for it? You might want to look at the Cary Cimena 11. It is all sound processing and no video section. I bought one and it blew my 7000 dollar McIntosh out of the water. It only reatils for 3000. Then you can put the extra money into a good Pass Labs Pre like a 2.5 or an X1. Those are my thoughts.

Even if your pre/pro handles video switching/processing there may be some benefits to keeping the video signals away from your audio. The installer that sold me the Theta is a firm believer of not mixing the two in a single chassis.

T-

Tj Bassi said:

The CB3 is an expensive unit and almost certainly requires an installer to come out for the initial setup.
Tj

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I'm researching the high dollar HT processors and the CB3 is at the top of my life. Why do you say it requires an installer to come out for the initial setup? Is it THAT complicated?

Rich said:

But the big decision I have to make now is which surround sound pre/pro to go with.

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I am in the same boat as you in deciding on a Pre-Pro, but I am also within a tight budget due to money-sucking children college payments. If you listen carefully, you can probably hear the vacuum sound from where you live!!!! :haha1:

As for the higher end, I am looking at the Meridian G68 or the Theta Casablanca.

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If I had the $$$, these are two companies and products from them which I would highly consider. Used prices are still up there, but much better than new.

In the lower end (again referencing used prices not performance) there is Arcam (300), Cary (6 & 11), Parasound (C2 & 7100), Krell (Showcase), Anthem (AV line), B&K. But one has to think about priorities of Music or Video??? I have my own thoughts on each of these companies when it comes to music and video.

For me, music is my highest priority for a Pre/Pro and I do not need amplification, as I already have dedicated amps for all my channels.

Dan

My Pass X-1 is for sale. It's listed in the classifieds. Contact me if you need any info.

Pre/Pro: 2-channel vs home theater

I have a home theater set up with Summits/Stage/Script i's/Descents. Like Rich I have a Pass X350.5 which is a fabulous 2 channel amp. My two-channel preamp is an Pass X0.2 (you can pick these up used for less than $5K on Audiogon). The X0.2 has a unity gain pass-through that will allow you to put a multi-channel preamp with or without video processing through the system.
I asked Pass Labs directly for their recommendations since they are not going to make such a unit. They suggesting a Lexicon. I got the Lexicon 8B which has enough audio inputs for multichannel sound. It also has video switching which is convenient if you have multiple video sources (I have HDTV, DVD, VCR, and LaserDisc). It can be taken in or out of the system readily when all you want is 2-channel sound.
I got a Pass X-3 3 channel amp for my center channel and surrounds. It mates well with the X350.5 and can be gotten for a reasonable price on Audiogon or from dealer demos/used.
I do most of my audio listening in 2-channel and my video in multi-channel surround. You can spend a ton on a dedicated multichannel pre/pro but I have not heard very many (even expensive ones) that sound as good as a good 2-channel device. Further, until there is more attention paid to the audio quality of HDTV broadcasts, movie soundtracks or even some surround CD's or DVD's, the rate-limiting step on your home theater sound experience will come from the source not the playback equipment.

Thanks to everyone for all the input. Let me post some responses here:

TJ: If I went with the Theta gear, it would definitely be a CB III. There are several used ones on Audiogon right now. I am curious if you use yours for two-channel and how it sounds. I am also curious what your thoughts were on the comparison between it and the Meridian gear in the showroom. What to you consider to be the Theta's strengths over the Meridian? Also, I am interested to know if you are happy with the Theta for the money or if you wish you had purchased something else.

I am not too concerned about the initial setup. I have faith in my ability to set it up properly, no matter how complicated it may be.


Diamonds: Thanks for the suggestion of the Cary Cinema. I will do a little more research on this item. I know Cary makes great products.


Dan: Like you, music is my priority. But I don't want to skimp on the theater sound either since I am going to the effort and cost to put in a front projector. That is what makes this decision so difficult. I really do want the best of both worlds.

Now that you mention it, I do hear a slight sucking sound coming from your direction, but I just figured that was the politicians in Washington. :haha1: I feel for you with the college payments sucking your budget away. But you can be assured that is money well-spent. I am extremely lucky that I have a pretty hefty budget for this home theater, so I have a lot of wiggle room in choosing components. It is still difficult deciding where to splurge and where to skimp.


Jtwrace: Thanks for the offer, but if I went the Pass route I think I would have to go with the X0.1. However, I am leaning more toward something along the lines of the ARC Ref. 3 tubed preamp if I decide to go with a high end two-channel pre.


Babydoc: Wow, our systems are going to be very similar. I have been looking for a used X-3 ever since I got my 350.5, but I haven't found one yet. My only concern with it was that 150 wpc doesn't seem like a lot of power for the center channel, which gets so much signal information in movies. Have you noticed any issues with that? How do you like the X0.2 mated with the 350.5? It is on my short list of two-channel pre's. As I mentioned above, I am also thinking about the ARC Ref. 3.

Please keep the input coming. It is all very helpful.

TomDac said:

I'm researching the high dollar HT processors and the CB3 is at the top of my life. Why do you say it requires an installer to come out for the initial setup? Is it THAT complicated?

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Tom-

The Casablanca handles all input/output jacks and front panel controls entirely in the digital domain....all of these features have to be assigned and mapped in the initial setup. Perhaps not terribly difficult for most folks but the setup menus are a few levels deep and navigating them with the remote/front panel controls can be fustrating (If your CB does not have a composite/S video card you will not have the on-screen display).
The setup also confronts you with a wide array of speaker/sub crossover options and it is best to have a thorough understanding of the subject before getting started. From what I've experienced this is the area where most new CB owners have difficulty. The manual (download from Thetas site, 120 pages) gives some good descriptions on crossovers in general but applying that information at first seems daunting (Jonathan of SLCX3 fame suggested crossover specs for me that I still use to this day).
Theta offers free setup software (Crystal, again downloadable from the site) that makes setup much easier, and as a bonus you can make a parameter change and instantly hear the results.
Initially it took me a week of evenings to leaf through the manual and probably a whole Sunday to get the unit configured. Since then I've set up a few units for other owners using a laptop/Crystal software and have whittled the process down to just a few hours. Certainly if anyone on the group purchases a Casablanca either new or used I would be willing to walk them through the setup. Most Theta dealers will offer to do the initial setup (mine did) but I wanted to dig into it myself.

Tj

Put me solidly in the tube stereo preamp, separate pre-pro category. This gives you the most flexibility with the best sound. I've been living with a BAT VK51SE stereo preamp and a Rotel 1068 pre-pro for several years and would recommend them. That being said, however, I'm about to unload the BAT for an ARC Ref 3.

Rich, I am hardly objective but I promise you will not regret the purchase of a Ref 3!

Rich said:

Dan: Like you, music is my priority. But I don't want to skimp on the theater sound either since I am going to the effort and cost to put in a front projector. That is what makes this decision so difficult. I really do want the best of both worlds.

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Since I have my Arc, Plinius, Servo 15 V2, SMS-1, Modded Sony, and CLSIIz's, I already have the two channel covered well at this point of my system evolution.

I have HT Passthrough on the ARC, and dedicated amps for surround and center. With dedicated amps for all your HT channels, I truely think is the best way. You can then look for a Pre/Pro that only does processing and not worry about any of the power influencing parts of it.

For me movies and HT is just secondary, so again if the Pre/Pro I purchase does MCH well, then improved music videos and movie sound is an added bonus.

Looking for a good Pre/Pro for video AND music is a challenge, but a fun one.

Dan

Rich-

I am in the same boat you are; my wife and I are about a month away from listing our home and a stern requirement of our new home is that it have space for a dedicated listening room/theater. Since I use the system for about 50% two-channel, 25% multi channel, and 25% home theater, the Casablanca really earns its keep since it can store completely different and independent setups for each source device/listening mode. My speaker configuration for two channel listening is very different than that used for 5.4 digital movie sources. This was demo'd to my by another CB owner and was the main reason I purchased one myself, although the cost of the CB originally stretched my pre/pro budget.

Since I spend considerably more time in two-channel mode, I had the unit upgraded with Superior II dacs for the front channels.....about $2000 for the card including installation but performance-wise it has proven to be money very well spent. Definitely the best processor I've used and I've never regretted the purchase.

Being a card-based system, take careful notes when considering a used unit. There are quite a few different configurations to be had depending on which dac cards are installed. You seem interested in two-channel quality so at least look for a unit with an upgraded dac (Superior or Extreme dac) card in slot 1. I've seen a few nice CB3's on Agon that could be had for considerably less than new and a few of them were loaded with good hardware.

Tj

Tj Bassi said:

Since I spend considerably more time in two-channel mode, I had the unit upgraded with Superior II dacs for the front channels.....about $2000 for the card including installation but performance-wise it has proven to be money very well spent. Definitely the best processor I've used and I've never regretted the purchase.

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TJ - a true benefit of the Theta units is the card upgrades, and the upgrade paths from previous models to the newer ones. The Theta is a top component on my wish list - especially in regards to digital playback as Theta was and continues to be the leader in this field.

Dan

I like my Rotel 1098 pre/pro...it does a GREAT job on HT stuff and has full bypass mode for 2 channel, as well as a 2.1 channel mode. Nice stuff. The 1098 also has the screen on the front which has many cool uses (as I have said before it allows me to monitor the security cameras while watching/listening to something else) and it can be had for around $2k used. The 1068 I think does everything the 1098 does but w/o the screen... It is a VERY NICE way to enjoy HT on a fairly small budget.

It does NOT have any HDMI support and not enough video inputs for my taste, but those are pretty easy to work around (other than the HDMI for future super HT DTS/DD formats...)

Keep us posted, you are getting into some pretty rare air with your set up and it should sound AWESOME! Someday I will probably have either MBL or Pass amps for my 101's and or the ML's... As well as a Tube Pre! Love the thought of an ARC Ref 3! YEA BABY!

Tj Bassi said:

Tom-

The Casablanca handles all input/output jacks and front panel controls entirely in the digital domain....all of these features have to be assigned and mapped in the initial setup. Perhaps not terribly difficult for most folks but the setup menus are a few levels deep and navigating them with the remote/front panel controls can be fustrating (If your CB does not have a composite/S video card you will not have the on-screen display).
The setup also confronts you with a wide array of speaker/sub crossover options and it is best to have a thorough understanding of the subject before getting started. From what I've experienced this is the area where most new CB owners have difficulty. The manual (download from Thetas site, 120 pages) gives some good descriptions on crossovers in general but applying that information at first seems daunting (Jonathan of SLCX3 fame suggested crossover specs for me that I still use to this day).
Theta offers free setup software (Crystal, again downloadable from the site) that makes setup much easier, and as a bonus you can make a parameter change and instantly hear the results.
Initially it took me a week of evenings to leaf through the manual and probably a whole Sunday to get the unit configured. Since then I've set up a few units for other owners using a laptop/Crystal software and have whittled the process down to just a few hours. Certainly if anyone on the group purchases a Casablanca either new or used I would be willing to walk them through the setup. Most Theta dealers will offer to do the initial setup (mine did) but I wanted to dig into it myself.

Tj

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Hey TJ...

thanks for that info... That sounds SO fun to me!! I think what I like about this new breed of HT processors is that they're card based and more like a computer than anything else... This means they're very modular and upgradeable, so in 3 years I won't be looking for a new and improved processor...

TomDac said:

Hey TJ...

thanks for that info... That sounds SO fun to me!! I think what I like about this new breed of HT processors is that they're card based and more like a computer than anything else... This means they're very modular and upgradeable, so in 3 years I won't be looking for a new and improved processor...

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That was one feature that helped solidify my decision to purchase the CB....at the time HDMI-3 had not yet been implemented but Theta already had a card in the works. I was concerned with keeping hardware current with the latest standards (and the dreaded HDCP that tags along).
Right after picking up my Casablanca, I got the crazy (???) idea of pairing up a Descent sub with each of my four reQuests. Not impossible since in HT use the subwoofers are normally daisy chained, with one sub being a 'master'. However, to maintain system flexibility, Theta suggested modifying one of my dac cards to allow independent control of each of the four subs, thus giving me a true 5.4 system. The point of all this is to show just how flexible the modular CB chassis is. One phone call and a quick visit from the local field rep and it was a done deal.

Tj

TomDac said:

I think what I like about this new breed of HT processors is that they're card based and more like a computer than anything else... This means they're very modular and upgradeable, so in 3 years I won't be looking for a new and improved processor...

Click to expand...

Theta has two new processors coming out the Virtuso, currently about more than a year behind the announced schedule, (you can read about it on the website) And a new computer based, system / media center that is still on the drawing board / conceptual stage.

I have really enjoyed this thread, as I am also looking for a new pre/pro and amps for my Summit based HT. I have had Theta on the short list but the prices have been the stopper. After reading here the search may focus on how to afford the Theta gear Casablanca and Dreadnaught, rather than which gear.

Theta also puts RS232 serial ports on all of their gear so that you can control them with an AMX or Creston unit, but they also publish all of the command codes so that you can control them all with a laptop and write some very complex macro and never miss remote control logic.

Update: New Gear Coming!

Well, I have made some decisions and ordered some of the gear for my dedicated audio/video room. Rather than play the mystery game and keep you all on pins and needles (like J:devil:ey), I will just lay it out.

Yesterday, I ordered a Meridian G68 XXV Surround Processor to act as the centerpiece of my home theater system. It should arrive in ten days or so. I was vacillating between the Meridian and the Theta Casablanca III and would ultimately be happy with either of them. I found a good deal on a brand new Meridian unit with full warranty and went for it.

As most of you know, I already have the Summits, Stage and Clarities and a Descent. I plan to get another Descent and have a 5.2 system. The Pass Labs X350.5 will power the Summits, and I am still looking for a Pass Labs X3 to power the center and rears.

I also recently ordered a Reference Audio Mods modified Oppo DV-970HD Universal Player. I haven't picked out a High-def player yet. The projector I have on order is the new JVC RS1, which should be in pretty soon. Finally, I recently ordered a Salamander Synergy Quad 20 equipment rack to house all of this wonderful equipment. My seating is from the Ekornes Stressless line, and will be delivered this Tuesday.

All I have left to decide on is cables and acoustic treatments. I will audition some different cables once I get the gear and see what I like. As for acoustic treatments, I am planning on getting a mix of products from ASC, Real Traps, and RPG Diffuser Systems. I haven't ordered any of that yet. Also, I am still strongly considering adding an ARC Ref 3 for two-channel listening, if I can find a good deal on one.

We are supposed to move into the new house over the next week or two, so I will be really busy with the move and then start setting up the room and ordering the remaining gear. The room is prewired and ready for the projector to be installed. I have four dedicated twenty amp circuits with isolated grounds for the equipment. I am working hard to make this an awesome room for movies as well as music, so let's hope I succeed.

For you audio porn fanatics, you will just have to be patient. What with the move and all, I will not have time to take pictures of each piece of gear as it arrives. But I promise that once I have it all set up, I will take lots of pictures and post it in the member's systems area. Thanks for everyone's advice and comments as I worked to put together this system. You all have provided lots of valuable information that helped me in my decision-making process. Now the decisions are (mostly) made and the hard work begins. Wish me luck.