Upgrading to summits?

I'm interested in getting a fantastic, dedicated 2.1 listening setup this year.

Does anyone have any suggestions for what Krell equipment to use with a pair of summits and a descent? Nothing is purchased yet, but I'm mostly stuck on Krell (potential for some big cost savings). My only intended input is a transporter from slim devices.

I enjoy the incredible sound of these speakers, but I lack the technical prowess of the majority of you!

Hold off on the Krell, they really need to redesign their line.

Have not heard the Evolution series, but I've heard great things about the CAST technology. The Krell SACD Standard is a superb player and if you mate it with the FPBs, that's a killer system.

Note you might not need a Descent with the Summits in a dedicated music system. I was curious about this when I was considering upgrading the Ascents in my system to Summits (which I've now decided to do, BTW). See this thread here for the discussion.

I haven't heard any big Krell's with the Summits. I only have a little experience with the little integrated amplifier, which I suggest may not be the best choice - I have heard the integrateds are prone to overheating when driving very low impedance loads. The big Krells can drive anything...

Was in ML dealer at weekend and they did not recommend the baby Krell (400) to drive Summits/Vantage. Gave a reason to do with use of ICs and not transistors and that the baby Krell does not handle the power demands of the ML speakers as you go up the frequency range. Don't know if right or wrong but that's what the man said.
The store does not stock Krell (!!) but I know that they have another branch nearby that does (so it cannot be just an anti-Krell viewpoint.... or can it?)
For interest, they were using entry level Ayre integrated to drive the Vantages that I was listening to.

I auditioned the Summits at Tweeter! with the baby Krell integrated and the SACD standard. Cables were relatively inexpensive Audioquest. I thought it sounded OK and the player is really good. Not nearly as good as I hear in my home with other equipment. The Krell integrated might be a reasonable start but I think there is huge competition at it's price point (including the Ayre which I think sounds better).

Sorry for the quick reply, but I'm at work. I appreciate all the responses and will post something more in depth this evening (more comments, questions).

The reason I'm stuck on Krell is that my wife gets a dealer discount on the Krell stuff. So if there is better stuff that is price competitive with Krell stuff at 50% off, I'm interested. I'm nervous of used stuff, though, since I'm not as experienced or well informed as most of you. I'm very fond of tube amps, but I'm not sure whether they can compete at the reduced prices I'd pay for Krell.

discocarp said:

The reason I'm stuck on Krell is that my wife gets a dealer discount on the Krell stuff. So if there is better stuff that is price competitive with Krell stuff at 50% off, I'm interested.

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To me, this is a no-brainer. I don't think you will find new equipment that is better than Krell that costs less than half of what the Krell costs. I think you simply buy the best Krell two-channel amp that you can afford with your discount, whether that be one of the Evolution models, or one of the Full Power Balanced X Series models, on down to the "lowly" KAV 2250. Just buy the best model you can afford.

Also, I agree with kcl that if you don't already own a Descent, you might save that money and put it toward purchasing a better amplifier. For two channel listening, a Descent is not going to add that much to what the Summits are already capable of, especially for the money. You will get more bang for the buck by buying a more capable amp. Have fun with your purchase.

I have read great things about the Krell 400xi integrated and was very impressed by it when I heard it with the Vantage. What are the negatives with this piece other than the heat? Is that even a big deal? I really like the idea of an integrated and this unit has gotten rave reviews from several different sources.

Rich said:

Also, I agree with kcl that if you don't already own a Descent, you might save that money and put it toward purchasing a better amplifier. For two channel listening, a Descent is not going to add that much to what the Summits are already capable of, especially for the money. You will get more bang for the buck by buying a more capable amp. Have fun with your purchase.

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I concur, if you do not already have a sub do not buy one. The summits will do fine without it. I just upgraded from Vistas to Summits and turn off my sub (Grotto) while listening in 2ch mode. Use the money toward a better Krell or other source electronics, or better yet get more high quality source material, might I suggest checking out the suggested recordings section of the forum I have found many excelent new CD/records there. Also try Classic Records makers of 24/192 HDAD dvd-audio recordings These sound great on a pair of summits.

discocarp said:

Sorry for the quick reply, but I'm at work. I appreciate all the responses and will post something more in depth this evening (more comments, questions).

The reason I'm stuck on Krell is that my wife gets a dealer discount on the Krell stuff. So if there is better stuff that is price competitive with Krell stuff at 50% off, I'm interested. I'm nervous of used stuff, though, since I'm not as experienced or well informed as most of you. I'm very fond of tube amps, but I'm not sure whether they can compete at the reduced prices I'd pay for Krell.

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If you are fond of tube amps, it is unlikely you will be fond of the Krell sound. They are at opposite ends of the spectrum.

Thank you so much for all the feedback. You have no idea how much I appreciate all the advice!

Hold off on the Krell, they really need to redesign their line.

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Can you elaborate on this? I hear some complaints about krell stuff, but its never anything I can pin down.

The Krell SACD Standard is a superb player and if you mate it with the FPBs, that's a killer system.

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I was thinking of holding off on the SACD initially. All of my material is currently FLAC from my cds. I'm currently running a squeezebox, but will probably update to a transporter if I get the summits. Initially I'd prefer to sink all my money into getting my existing collection to sound fantastic. SACD is a real possibility down the road though.

The big Krells can drive anything...

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Was in ML dealer at weekend and they did not recommend the baby Krell (400) to drive Summits/Vantage.

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I auditioned the Summits at Tweeter! with the baby Krell integrated and the SACD standard.

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I was definitely looking at the big Krells! I don't think the smaller one's would do the summits justice.

Note you might not need a Descent with the Summits in a dedicated music system.

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Also, I agree with kcl that if you don't already own a Descent, you might save that money and put it toward purchasing a better amplifier. For two channel listening, a Descent is not going to add that much to what the Summits are already capable of, especially for the money. You will get more bang for the buck by buying a more capable amp.

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I concur, if you do not already have a sub do not buy one. The summits will do fine without it.

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Thanks for the advice! I think I will put that money towards the amp instead. In any case, I have a friend with a descent. So I can try it out pretty painlessly!

To me, this is a no-brainer. I don't think you will find new equipment that is better than Krell that costs less than half of what the Krell costs. I think you simply buy the best Krell two-channel amp that you can afford with your discount, whether that be one of the Evolution models, or one of the Full Power Balanced X Series models, on down to the "lowly" KAV 2250. Just buy the best model you can afford.

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This is exactly what I was thinking, and why I was stuck on Krell. Its nice to hear it summed up well.

I'm very fond of tube amps

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Ok I quoted myself here. It makes a nice subject break!

What about a preamp? Is this something I could get down the road, and perhaps even get a tube preamp to go with whichever krell I decide on? Is this a reasonable halfway point for me, or is this a really bad idea?

If you are fond of tube amps, it is unlikely you will be fond of the Krell sound. They are at opposite ends of the spectrum.

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You snuck this in while I was posting! I had to edit for this response.

While that is a concern for me, I don't have a tube amp now. I still think it would be a huge improvement. I may end up upgrading at some point down the road though. Also, see my question above re: tube preamps.

discocarp said:

The reason I'm stuck on Krell is that my wife gets a dealer discount on the Krell stuff.

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At dealer cost, you can buy the 400xi or KAV-2250, live
with it for a few months, and lose relatively little money
selling it on Audiogon should you find something you like
better.

At dealer cost, you can buy the 400xi or KAV-2250, live
with it for a few months, and lose relatively little money
selling it on Audiogon should you find something you like
better.

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I think we aren't allowed to resell for 12 months. In any case I could use a cheaper krell in the bedroom if I upgraded. If I went the cheaper route with the krells as you suggest, will they sound good with the summits? I don't necessarily mind going this route, but only if they're going to do the speakers justice in the meantime. Who knows when I might get around to upgrading.

Ok, I'll chime in...

First, the disclaimer, I've never been a fan of Krell. Let me qualify that a bit, I wanted to like Krell in the past for their technical prowess, but I got...ear-bleeds everytime I auditioned Krell and had to...detour over to the Mark Levinson or Pass Labs camps. Now, onto the subject at hand... If

1. You are looking at the Big Krell
2. You are fond of tube amps
3. You have interests in tube pre-amp

There are quite a few tube amplifiers which match really well with the Summits. The rationale being that you need only to consider a good, musical (tubed) amplifier of medium power to drive the panels. The Summits have their own internal power amplifiers for the bass. For example, I'd look at AES SixPacs monoblocs as a starting point. Given that the SixPacs are sold directly from the manufacturer, you could get an approximation of how the SixPacs will sound by auditioning the Cary V12R.

Spike

discocarp said:

If I went the cheaper route with the krells as you suggest, will they sound good with the summits?

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I'll give a qualified "Yes" to good sound at respectable SPL,
but Stereophile's review indicates that the 400xi will run
hot with tough loads (any ML stat) and needs plenty of
ventilation. Krell doesn't over-spec their amps and this one
has a monster transformer and supply caps, but it appears
they didn't heat sink the 400xi adequately...


Wes has always given favorable reviews to ML speakers, so
his listening tastes are similar to ours.

So provided you will eventually upgrade, I don't think you
can go wrong with the 400xi for the money. Don't expect
the ultimate performance of top-shelf separates, but
you're only spending $1500 to get 200W per channel of
clean power plus a top-shelf preamp.

At this level of performance (ML, Krell, BAT, ARC, Levinson,
etc) you don't need to worry about getting a "lemon". But
ultra-revealing speakers plus ultra-revealing Krell amps
plus a sub-par DAC (or room, or recording) will produce
very unpleasant results; as in Spike's testimony. Summit
plus Krell amps means exposing any warts in the upstream
chain. This is especially true (as Jjqiv points out) if you
prefer a soft "tube sound" which hides some of those
warts.

Now if you have a large room and really need to drive the
stat panels at high SPL (or for long periods), then you
should probably start with the best separate 2-ch amp you
can afford.

I've got no problems with Krell per se. If you can get a discount on their better quality stuff, I'd go for it. It's just that the little 400 may not be the very best choice for the money with the Summits/Vantages. I know Krell have some excellent stuff at a slightly higher price point than the 400. If I could afford Krell - I'd buy it.

Go Krell. If you can get a massive discount on them, why not? They're definitely one of the better audio manufacturers out there.

And you cant please everyone, not all will enjoy the Krell sound. Just as not everyone enjoys the ML sound.

jjqiv said:

If you are fond of tube amps, it is unlikely you will be fond of the Krell sound. They are at opposite ends of the spectrum.

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HI jjqiv,
You are generalizing. Have you ever spent time with Audio Research products, especially more modern than the SP-10 era (mid 1980's)? I think not. ARC is not stereotypical tube sound as you imply. In fact, I have referred to them as tubed Krell but better.

In truth, I love the ARC sound. And I like Krell as well. I also own Krell products where they are used in my bedroom HT system. The sound I am after is one without signature but with great subtlety and outstanding resolution. ARC offers all these things in spades. Better than Krell or any other solid state products I have heard. Neutrality is my goal.

It's generalizations like yours that drives me nuts. I love tubes but not the tubes to which you refer. Please try to be a little wiser or more specific when you pronounce statements of fact. Your post is flat misleading.

Sparky