The biggest change to reduce brightness: Tube preamp or cd player

What would make the biggest difference, a tube preamplifier or a different cd player. I am experiencing some high frequency glare with my ML Vantage speakers. I have toed them in to get a better soundstage and reduce the glare. I am using a Rotel rd-1072 cd player with a Anthem tlp-1 preamplifier. I do not have an option to do room treatments as my girlfriend will not go along with it. She let me upgrade to the ML Vantage speakers rather than let me put in bass traps with my ML Aeon1 speakers. Any suggestions?
Jim

I forgot to include that I am using a Rotel RB-1080 Amplifier also.
Jim

jjay said:

What would make the biggest difference, a tube preamplifier or a different cd player. I am experiencing some high frequency glare with my ML Vantage speakers. I have toed them in to get a better soundstage and reduce the glare. I am using a Rotel rd-1072 cd player with a Anthem tlp-1 preamplifier. I do not have an option to do room treatments as my girlfriend will not go along with it. She let me upgrade to the ML Vantage speakers rather than let me put in bass traps with my ML Aeon1 speakers. Any suggestions?
Jim

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A new girlfriend! (just Kidding). This won't really help much but try each to see which one makes the biggest difference. You may have reached the point that your speakers are now so much better than the preceding components that you are hearing their flaws to a greater extent than before. Don't forget that you have an amp also and it may be the culprit.

I like tubes and always recommend them!

Tube Preamp!

Jeff,
Please go into more detail about why you believe the tube preamplifier would help them most. I was leaning that way myself as the Rotel 1072 cd player is a hdcd player and I have alot of hdcd cds. I also have a cheaper SACD player which sounds like I have a blanket over it compared to the Rotel.
thanks,
Jim

You could try getting a California Audio Labs (CAL) transport with their tubed DAC. It runs with a tube on each output stage. When I had that gear, it provided a great sense of warmth by smoothing the digital output into a more analog signal. I suspect a tube pre-amp would do the same. Personnaly, I would change your amp to something like a Classe.

I likewise recommend a tube Pre, as that will provide tube warmth regardless of source. For instance, I use both a CD player AND Squeezebox as sources (via a Benchmark DAC) and my Modwright Pre adds just enough warmth to both, therby eliminating the "digital glare" that often caused listening fatigue. If possible, audition a tube Pre vs. a tube DAC or CD player, and go with whatever sounds best.

Tube pre as well , but give the girl friend a good talking to first !!

As a "general" rule of thumb the tubes help to soften up the freq extremes a tad as well as doing their "magic' to the mids.

The answers that you've got are all very founded, and theoretically I agree with them. But then, I'm an SS guy and I keep the tube thing for when I'll retire - I always leave all the gear on and I want it to be like that: come home, open the door, press play and get immediately the whole enchilada.

There is always another way to look at things, and you've got your answers based upon "too much brightness". I'd like to shift the perspective to "not enough bass and middle bass" Once you see the facts in a subtractive way, as opposed to an additive one, the range of possible improvements change.

I did let my girlfriend have her way with room treatments and she let me upgrade my ML Aeon1 speakers to ML Vantage speakers. Maybe if I let her have her way again she will let me get ML Summits:devil:

I think it's all down to how you percieve reproduced sound and how you BELIEVE it should be reproduced.

Some feel that solid state is not a natural path to perfect reproduction. While some could say tubes only soil the signal, and do not give you what was recorded.

We can argue that it should be the sound that decides it, but for some the science of audio has a say

Many culprits in the mix

Jim,

I believe there are many ways to address the brightness issue. As discussed, you could swap your preamp, amp, CD player, or adjust the bass crossover on your speakers. Is the overall sonic presentation bright on all your sources or are you hearing excessive sibilance on vocals and everything else is OK? I'd certainly try the bass adjustment first. Other potential culprits include interconnects, speaker wire, power cords, power line conditioning, static, RFI induced noise, and component vibration. How well isolated are your components from vibration? Are you using any vibration control devices? When was the last time you cleaned your interconnects and RCA terminals on your preamp, amp, and CD player? What's your room like? Live, dead or well balanced. Are your wires laying on carpet? If so, raising them off the floor by 6 to 8" may have a substantial impact on glare reduction. What is the wall in back of your speakers? Live, dead, or something in the middle. Having owned four different models of ML speaker, I can tell you the back wall plays a critical role in the overall sonic signature of a system.

I'm trying to provide constructive input and not trying to drive you crazy. Finding that magic balance between sufficient detail without listening fatigue is difficult but can be done. However, IMHO, trying to treat a brightness issue with swapping out major pieces of hardware, before you've explored other potential causes, is a very risky business at best. In the worst case, you can spend alot of money and still be unhappy. Caveat emptor. Take your time and good luck.

GG

I am of the belief that brightness with MLs is more a function of what the speakers interact with -- the room and the amp -- more than the other variables. (And by room I agree with fellow members that this includes room treatments and speaker and listener placement.)

I am partial to tube preamps too, and I've been using tube preamps for years, BUT they are not "problem solvers" -- they enhance what is fundamentally a good sound, but they are not band-aids to correct problems in the system. I also like tube output cdps, but they are also not problem solvers. Yes the preamp and cdp could in fact lessen the brightness and would likely give you a sound that you like better, but the brightness will still be fundamentally present.

Good luck!

jfm said:

I am of the belief that brightness with MLs is more a function of what the speakers interact with -- the room and the amp -- more than the other variables. (And by room I agree with fellow members that this includes room treatments and speaker and listener placement.)

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Not true...or not completely true anyway...could just be the way the equipment is/was calibrated of course... But, when I switched from a calibrated (via the onboard system) Pioneer Elite VSX-49TX to the Rotel 1098 I shuddered a few times at the brightness of the Prodigy... It was nice to hear greater detail and punch, but the highs are a bit bright for me. I suspect a good tube would warm things up nicely.

YMMV

Jeff Zaret said:

Tube Preamp!

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Jim,
I did have the Rotel amp and I still have the CDP 1072. Rotel does make good equipment, especially in comparison to other pieces at the same price point.

All of the suggestions are all very good and you should look in to some of them. Not to start a war or get flamed but to my ears some of the Rotel gear does sound bright in comparison to others. The biggest change I made to my system is when I went from a SS preamp (Rotel) to a tube preamp. The brightness was gone but the "highs" remained if that makes any sense. Having experience with tube preamps I am sure you will understand.

All things being equal, I would try a couple of tube preamps at home in your setup and see if things sound better to you. To tell you which preamp to use is kind of difficult because for many reasons they do sound different and they other thing which is not always mentioned is the availability of certain equipment where you live.

Now having said all of that the other thing you are probably aware of (?) is HDCD recordings sometimes sound bright. Indeed they are wonderful but depending on the original source and if the recording engineer "tweaked" anything in the process they may sound bright in comparison to normal redbook CD's.


I hope this helps just a bit.


Good Luck


Jeff

Hi
I just changed my speaker cable to Nordost Red Dawns. After installing them
my center channel sounded harsh and too bright.
I changed the crossover on my Theater i from 80hz to 120hz and now it really sounds great.
.
I'm not sure if the crossover was the issue but you may want to try that. Unless you want to buy a new component and are using the brightness as an excuse to your girlfriend?

Class A Amp!

I'm borrowing a 30w pass labs class A amp, and thing thing sounds fantastic...it's added a ton of texture to the music, while taking away some of the grain and glare I was getting on my top end. It's dangerous to borrow things

Thank you for all of your replies to my questsions. Jeff's description: the brightness was gone but the "highs" remained is exactly what I am trying to acheive. Any suggestions on tube preamplifiers. I would be looking in the $1000.00 - $3000.00 price range and would look on audigon.
Does anybody know if my Rotel 1080 amplifier could also be the culprit of this digital glare? Does anybody know the characteristics on this amplifier?
Jim

I also am of the position that what you need to correct is the room placement, treatments or perform some EQ on your system.
This notion that fundamental acoustics problems can be corrected through cables or amp topologies is a reflection of the snake-oil salesmanship of some of the vendors (and indirectly, the magazines their ads support). It needs some serious debunking.

Not saying a tube amp is bad, but that it can not correct your fundamental problem. It might change the perception of the effect but introducing frequency shaping (typically rolled off highs and additional harmonic components that some find pleasing). But it probably is not the first thing to try.

If anyone want to invest $2,500 to totally transform their system in a way no other gear (short of a better ML speaker, of course ) could, it would be to add an Audyssey MultEQ Pro to your rig. Guaranteed to make more of a difference than $10K worth of amps , CD players, or cables any day of the week.
Another great investment is room treatments if your room is dedicated or semi-dedicated.

Once you get room acoustics sorted, then you play with the bling of tubes or cables. You might even be able to appreciate the subtle differences better if the room’s devoid of nasty resonances.

jjay said:

could also be the culprit of this digital glare?Jim

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Jim, You last post phrased it as 'digital glare', a different animal possibly than what you mentioned in your first post perhaps ?? If so is it apparent on all your CD's ?? Or is it the upper freq range regardless ??

As far as your tube pre-amp question, I'm the ABC preacher around here,
ARC, BAT, Cary, CJ. Your price range will afford you a very nice piece !