Tried a Rotel RB-1080 against my Marantz receiver, no difference, what gives?

Folks,
Well, I just tried an interesting experiment, but I am not sure what to make of the outcome. I had been considering maybe getting an amplifier for my new ML Mosaics (5 ohms nominal). I am currently powering them straight off of my Marantz SR5600 receiver (90wpc @ 8 ohms x 7). I have really liked them a lot and have not felt like I have been missing anything at all from them. I can tell they are starting to finally break in, as the sound is just slowly starting to change. At least the bass is anyway, I have not heard anything different from the mid and high ranges. In any case, one of the two amps I was thinking of was a Rotel RB1070. I found a dealer in downtown Sacramento was the closest that carried Rotels. I emailed them and said that the only one they had in house was an 1080, and I was welcome to come in and listen and even take it home to audition if I wished. So I went and took a listen, using all Rotel stuff, and a pair of B&W 803's. They had some 802's there too that were also very interesting. In any case, it sounded nice, but I could not shake the sound of the box with the 803's. (the 802's sounded MUCH nicer with the dome, but still no match for the transparent sound of the mosaics) So I asked if I could take it home and try it on the Logans. So I did. I brought it home and hooked it up, and played all kinds of things. I tried CD's, SACD's, DVD-a's, Dolby Digital movie, DTS movie. I first listened without it, then with it, and then without it. I tried and tried and tried to hear anything different. I just couldn't. Are my expectations too high? What was I supposed to be hearing that is different? The highs were still beautiful, the mids were also very nice, and the bass sounded great too, but no different than what I get normally from the Marantz. So I brought it back the next morning, and was totally honest with him and he said well, I guess you just found out that it isn't an amp that you need at this point. I even tried it with his fancy shmancy "Transparent" cables. The ones with these odd boxes on one end of them. Again, no discernible difference.

I am still slightly concerned that since the Marantz says on the back, 6 ohm minimum, and the Mosaics are 5 ohms, is that going to hurt the receiver in the long run? My gut feeling is probably not. I don't really turn them up that hard for very long. The receiver is in a cabinet behind glass, but even after watching a movie or listening to music for several hours at a time, the receiver is only just barely warm to the touch. I can put my hand on it and keep it on without finding it hot. So, should I even worry about it at all at this point?

My long term goal, and this may be a while, is to get some ML Vignette or Fresco's for the rear speakers, and maybe replace my Paradigm CC-270 with a ML as well. I suppose that with all of those speakers pulling 5 or 6 ohms nominally that perhaps that could be a concern, but it's probably going to be another year or more before I can afford the other speakers. I have some Paradigm Titans (8 ohm) that I could put up, if I can find some room, or if I can figure out if it is ok to put them on a wall bracket without a stud behind it, but I guess that's a question for another thread? So I guess perhaps if I do end up getting the other speakers to put up in the rear, maybe then I should really think about an amp, just for safety sake, since I really don't seem to needing an amp at this point?

I also wonder if my conclusions are flawed? Maybe the Rotel wasn't the right one to look into? Maybe I should try another brand and model? What do you guys think?

-capT

What was the preamp that you used for the Rotel?

How did you listen to them? Did you listen for anything in particular? Did you sit in the sweet spot and listen critically?

Joey

Joey_V said:

What was the preamp that you used for the Rotel?

How did you listen to them? Did you listen for anything in particular? Did you sit in the sweet spot and listen critically?

Joey

Click to expand...

Joey,
I actually used my Marantz as the preamp. I took from the pre outs to the unbalanced in's of the rotel. I did sit in the sweet spot, and I just mainly tried to hear anything that sounds different from normal. I am not sure if I did it right, being a bit of a newbie still, but trusting my ears, I could not hear anything different. Again, I am not sure what to expect either. I hear a lot of people say, Oh, I plugged in amplifier X to my system and suddenly everything opens up, better bass, higher highs, bigger soundstage, blah, blah, blah. Well, my setup already sounds really great... Was I expecting too much, or was the Rotel really the Marantz's equal in this case, and therefore did not really make a difference?

-capT

captain_tinker said:

Joey,
I actually used my Marantz as the preamp. Was I expecting too much, or was the Rotel really the Marantz's equal in this case, and therefore did not really make a difference?

-capT

Click to expand...

Probably using the Marantz as the Pre you were expecting a little much. That may well be the limiting factor right there.

I went from a Pioneer Elite VSX49TX (top of the line a few years back) powering my Prodigy based system to a Rotel RSP1098 processor and RB1090 amp (for the Prodigy, a 1095 for the other 5 ML's in the system) and it was a HUGE difference right out of the gate! The highs really came alive and the general musicality of the speakers improved. The Pioneer while awesome was just not powerful enough for the Prodigy, or frankly clean enough.

YMMV (Your Mileage May Vary)

So, if I am understanding correctly, it sounds like the pre-amp I am using would have to be different also if I really expect to really hear a difference then? Ok then. Makes sense. That's good to know. I really appreciate the information, like I said before, I am still really trying to understand this hobby. It's so much fun to listen to my music now that I have the Mosaics. In fact, I pulled out an old cd that my wife had gotten a few years ago in a Christmas gift from her boss. It was a "Spa" cd, in other words it came with some lotions, bath salts, and other relaxing agents for girls, and a cd with some classical music and nature sounds with it. I gotta tell you that when I put it in, and played it, I could have sworn I was in the forest with a bunch of birds chirping. My little 3 and half year old daughter was looking around for the birds! Where are they daddy? I really like them a lot. So, I guess I just won't worry at this point about an amp unless the receiver just gets overwhelmed, which at this point, I doubt is going to happen.

Out of curiosity though, if I used a different pre amp and an amp, that pretty much negates the use of the receiver in general, right? The receiver is really just a combo of a pre amp, an amp, a tuner, some signal processors such as DD, DTS, HDCD, etc, and basically serves as a switch for video and audio signals, right? If I were to get a different pre amp, and amp, then the combo of the pre amp and the amp takes the place of the receiver, right? Just want to make sure I am understanding correctly.

-capT


EDIT: PS, pcar928fan, just looked up your rotel rsp1098, Wow!!! I mean WOW! No wonder it made a huge difference! That looks like quite a rig! Very impressive!

Using the Marantz as your pre is the problem. All you're doing is amplifying the Marantz. Although you shouldve heard a bit of a difference, the sound signature should still be "Marantz".

Joey_V said:

Using the Marantz as your pre is the problem. All you're doing is amplifying the Marantz. Although you shouldve heard a bit of a difference, the sound signature should still be "Marantz".

Click to expand...

But, then that is not necessarily a bad thing since he likes the original setup's sound. If the Marantz was underpowered, then he should have heard a big difference with the separate amp. My guess is that he did not push the speakers hard enough to hear the difference. Or that Rotel's ratings are extremely over-rated (highly unlikely).

Thai said:

But, then that is not necessarily a bad thing since he likes the original setup's sound. If the Marantz was underpowered, then he should have heard a big difference with the separate amp. My guess is that he did not push the speakers hard enough to hear the difference. Or that Rotel's ratings are extremely over-rated (highly unlikely).

Click to expand...

Well, no, not necessarily. Remember that the pure function of any good high quality amp is to only amplify the signal - not to add any sonic signature of it's own. In this regard the Rotel is likely serving it's primary function. That being siad it is only going to amplify the signal it is being fed, although with a bit more control and authority. Remember that in audio EVERYTHING matters. Captain_tinker's system will sound the same until he changes out the pre-amp as well to something that is capable of more resolution. Once this is done then it is more likely that he will be able to hear the difference between power amps. Of course, the source components will also then be a contributor to the overall signature of the system.

And so the journey begins...right Joey?

spend some time with each amp...

Hola...when it is difficult to listen a difference...it is because our immediate memory only lasts 20 seconds!!! If you want to make it sure, you have to listen part of a music work for one minute several times, until you can learn all the things regarding the musician(s), size of the instruments, stage, 3 dimension, and you have to do it several times also this way...A-B-A then B-A-B. Ais amp no.1 and B is amp no. 2. To my ears it is better to live sometime with each component that I want to test, lets say one week, then I make the change...this :cheers: is the only way that I go for sure...perhaps this might help!!...happy listening,
Roberto.:musicnote:

CapT,

Thanks for the compliment. It was a VERY, VERY nice upgrade for me! It sounds really amazing...in my case the limiting factor is a room that is WAY to bright to begin with! Nothing I can do about that...will build a dedicated theater in the next few years.

You are correct that a Receiver is going to have a Tuner in it...most all Preamps today have some (or even a LOT) of video processing and sound processing capability. You would need an outboard tuner if you want to listen to a radio program and of course the already mentioned power amplifiers. It is a very nice upgrade when you get to that point!

captain_tinker said:

So, if I am understanding correctly, it sounds like the pre-amp I am using would have to be different also if I really expect to really hear a difference then? Ok then. Makes sense. if I used a different pre amp and an amp, that pretty much negates the use of the receiver in general, right? The receiver is really just a combo of a pre amp, an amp, a tuner, some signal processors such as DD, DTS, HDCD, etc, and basically serves as a switch for video and audio signals, right? If I were to get a different pre amp, and amp, then the combo of the pre amp and the amp takes the place of the receiver, right? Just want to make sure I am understanding correctly.

-capT


EDIT: PS, pcar928fan, just looked up your rotel rsp1098, Wow!!! I mean WOW! No wonder it made a huge difference! That looks like quite a rig! Very impressive!

Click to expand...

roberto said:

... regarding the musician(s), size of the instruments, stage, 3 dimension, and you have to do it several times also this way...A-B-A then B-A-B. Ais amp no.1 and B is amp no. 2.

Click to expand...

The things I notice or atleast look for when I switch amps or preamp or anything in the audio chain is similar to what Roberto said.

The big 3 are:
1. Vocal image and focus.... is it more focused, is there less "fuzz" around the image?
2. Vocal soundstaging.... is the vocalists less 2D with the rest of the musical ensemble? Is the vocalist pulled away from the background music?
3. Overall tone and transient dynamics... is the bass quicker, are the instruments more responsive to change in transient volume, is there more dynamic range between the lowest volume moment in the track and the highest volume peak in the same track?

Those are usually the first 3 I focus on, in that order.

JOey

MiTT said:

And so the journey begins...right Joey?

Click to expand...

My mouth is sealed, my friend...