Just heard MartinLogans for the first time...

I've been looking for new speakers for my home theater for the past few weeks. Yesterday, I was at a B&W dealer listening to the 600 and 700 series speakers. In the same room with these were a pair of MartinLogan Clarities. Since everything was hooked up to the same equipment, I figured "What the hell", hit the little speaker select switch for them, and sat down to listen.

I soon forgot all about buying B&Ws.

These speakers sounded absolutely beautiful, completely outclassing the B&W 703s, which are pretty similar in price.

So, now I'm thinking that MartinLogans may be the speaker for me--I haven't really considered electrostatics before, though, so I'm not too familiar with them. I'm hoping you kind folks could help me with some questions.

(1) Based on what I've read so far on the Internet, planar speakers have a reputation for having a narrow sweet spot. I certainly noticed a large change in the sound when I stood up from the listening chair. The MartinLogan literature claims that they have solved the problem of a narrow sweet spot in the horizontal axis by curving the speakers. Is this true, or are they still difficult to appreciate when you're seated off-axis?

(2) Another problem that planar speakers supposedly have is that they are difficult to set up--is this true for MartinLogans?

(3) Yet another supposed problem of planar speakers is that they need a lot of power to sound good. I'm currently using a Harman-Kardon DPR-2005. Supposedly this receiver can output 200w*7 into 4 ohms--would that be enough for the Clarities?

(4) What center channel would be a good match for the Clarities?

(5) What should I use for surrounds? I'm pretty flexible in the space I have to set up the mains, but I'd definitely need something smaller and, preferably, stand-mountable for the rears.

That's all for now, but I suspect that I'll have quite a few more questions over the next few weeks...

Claritys are simply amazing speakers but you're right they seem to completely cut off after you stand up.

If this would be too distracting or disappointing (as it was for me) I'd suggest looking at some used MLs.

When I bought my SL3s in February I was worried about warranties and such but the people here are amazingly helpful and ML is a really good company. I have had a lot of help from them as a ML owner who bought used.

See if you can get an in-home audition. I wouldn't spend that kind of $$ without it.

Clarity's...

Robonaut,

Welcome to the ML Club!

I agree completely with charliemike.
I would add however, ML's do take some time to set-up properly. We have some tweaks here at the ML Club which can help. The flash light technique is one is excellent... Trusting your ears is excellent as well.

I would use an amplifier which can provide solid power for each channel an amplifier which can double down to 1 ohm or less. An amplifier which has high current and ampheres is excellent like Anthem, Plinius, Rotel and Sunfire are excellent. I have a Pioneer Elite 59-TXi receiver which is touted to provide 160 Watts per channel at 8 ohms... The reality is that during use the Logan's ohms can dip down to 1 or 2 ohms thus I was trying to drive my Ascent i's at about 40 - 60 Watts, which was not working at all..., so I eventually up-graded to an Anthem Statement P5 Amp and use my Pioneer 59-TXi receiver to power just my rear two channels and as a processor. My 7:1 HT works extremely well currently. I love my Logan's... ML speakers are the very best in the world.

charkliemike is quite correct, I concur... Really consider checking- out 'Audiogon' verse buying new form a retail audio store, you can save big bucks.

hey Robin

Welcome to martin logan. I regret that I purchased my first pair Martin logan speakers. Now I cannot listen to anything else. I had to change all my speakers to logans. The clarity is an excelent speaker. If you are willing to spend that much for a speaker, go back and ask your dealer to listen to the Vistas. When i was at the dealer, I was amazed on the difference in the sound quality between the two and thaught it was worth the price difference.

For home theater, here is my setup. Fronts Vistas, center cinema i, rears are Frescos mounted high because my room is small. The more QUALITY power that you give your speakers, the better they will sound. I am curently useing an outlaw pre/pro and amp. When I upgraded to that from my Yamaha 2500, the difference was huge.

takecare

Robonaut,

You are in trouble now! You have listened to ML's! You should have NEVER done that! You won't be able to listen to anything else now. I was listening to some B&W speakers at our local high end store (sales guy showing off the Escient system) as I was looking at REALLY BIG TV's and they just SUCKED! Of course I was looking at $300 - $500/ea speaker where my main system (also bought used I might add) is $11,000 pair of Prodigy, plus a Theater, Ascent, Script, and Descent speakers. I do often listen to the Prodigy in stereo mode, but it is not fair to compare them to speakers costing 1/10th as much!

Set up is not difficult, and it can be fun! It is not as easy as setting the speakers down and forgetting about them till you move to the next house though. It will take some time to maximize them.

Also, Robin et. al. are correct! Power them with a proper receiver (at least the front pair and maybe the center for HT use) and you will be BLOWN AWAY by how they sound!

I used a Pioneer Elite VSX-49Tx to power my system and I didn't realize how much I was missing till I converted over to all Rotel gear! I know that is probably a lot more than you want to spend, but the beauty part is you go to www.audiogon.com and you will see just how much more each $$ will buy! When you buy ML used you also can likely sell it for close to the same later if you choose to upgrade!

All the best with your purchase and hopeful step into ML ownership!

Robonaut said:

(1) Based on what I've read so far on the Internet, planar speakers have a reputation for having a narrow sweet spot. I certainly noticed a large change in the sound when I stood up from the listening chair. The MartinLogan literature claims that they have solved the problem of a narrow sweet spot in the horizontal axis by curving the speakers. Is this true, or are they still difficult to appreciate when you're seated off-axis?

(2) Another problem that planar speakers supposedly have is that they are difficult to set up--is this true for MartinLogans?

(3) Yet another supposed problem of planar speakers is that they need a lot of power to sound good. I'm currently using a Harman-Kardon DPR-2005. Supposedly this receiver can output 200w*7 into 4 ohms--would that be enough for the Clarities?

(4) What center channel would be a good match for the Clarities?

(5) What should I use for surrounds? I'm pretty flexible in the space I have to set up the mains, but I'd definitely need something smaller and, preferably, stand-mountable for the rears.

Click to expand...

Robonaut,
I believe a lot of us are in the same boat as you, when we heard the ML's we just could not go back. The same thing happened to me, and now I have some ML Mosaics not quite a year after I bought my Paradigm Titan's! It was kind of an accident that I heard them at the dealer, and since then I just could not go with anything else.

As for your questions, I heard the same thing with the Clarity's, when I stood up, the sound dropped off. I believe that is normal with them, partly because the panels are a bit smaller than most ML stators. I found that moving side to side in front of them didn't do too bad, but getting above the stators is when the sound dropped. I didn't notice this as much with the Summit's for example, but then again, their panels are a LOT larger. I was extremely pleased with the Mosaics, they are not really an electrostat, but they still have planar style drivers for the tweeter and mid. They are a very solid sounding speaker, still better than most cone/box speakers, and have a very good ML sound to them. They are also relatively inexpensive compared to the ESL based speakers. I would take a listen to them if you get a chance. I think you would like them. They make a great into to ML's.

As for being difficult to set up, ESL's may be a bit harder, but my Mosaics were really not bad at all. The hardest thing was positioning them so they looked the same on both sides of the entertainment center. And for powering them, I heard the Mosaics on both an Anthem amp and a Musical Fidelity amp at the dealer and they were both incredible! I am considering either the Anthem or a Rotel amp, since I see that many members here have Rotels, and I have heard nothing but good things about that brand. I currently am using my Marantz SR5600 receiver, which is not necessarily rated to run the Mosaics, but it has been working fine for the moment. I am just waiting to be pleasantly blown away by a new amp.

The question about center channel speakers is probably going to be very subjective, and it will be up to you. I had a Paradigm CC270 with my Titan's, and I have not had the ca$h to upgrade yet, but it works great for the moment. I have heard the ML Fresco as a CC before with the ML Voyage in wall's for fronts and it sounded very good. I have also heard a lot of good things about the Vignette's but I have not heard them yet. So you could probably go with a cheaper cc for now, and get a ML later if you want, or just use a phantom center, because the ML's image very well. I always think my CC is on, but it's not... I will be using my Titans for surrounds at the moment because the WAF will not let me do anything else. Apparently since I bought them less than a year ago, I am not allowed to get rid of them already! Hehe!

Anyway, glad to have you here! Good luck in your search! Let us know how it goes!

-capT

Robonaut said:

I've been looking for new speakers for my home theater for the past few weeks. Yesterday, I was at a B&W dealer listening to the 600 and 700 series speakers. In the same room with these were a pair of MartinLogan Clarities. Since everything was hooked up to the same equipment, I figured "What the hell", hit the little speaker select switch for them, and sat down to listen.

I soon forgot all about buying B&Ws.

These speakers sounded absolutely beautiful, completely outclassing the B&W 703s, which are pretty similar in price.

So, now I'm thinking that MartinLogans may be the speaker for me--I haven't really considered electrostatics before, though, so I'm not too familiar with them. I'm hoping you kind folks could help me with some questions.

(1) Based on what I've read so far on the Internet, planar speakers have a reputation for having a narrow sweet spot. I certainly noticed a large change in the sound when I stood up from the listening chair. The MartinLogan literature claims that they have solved the problem of a narrow sweet spot in the horizontal axis by curving the speakers. Is this true, or are they still difficult to appreciate when you're seated off-axis?

(2) Another problem that planar speakers supposedly have is that they are difficult to set up--is this true for MartinLogans?

(3) Yet another supposed problem of planar speakers is that they need a lot of power to sound good. I'm currently using a Harman-Kardon DPR-2005. Supposedly this receiver can output 200w*7 into 4 ohms--would that be enough for the Clarities?

(4) What center channel would be a good match for the Clarities?

(5) What should I use for surrounds? I'm pretty flexible in the space I have to set up the mains, but I'd definitely need something smaller and, preferably, stand-mountable for the rears.

That's all for now, but I suspect that I'll have quite a few more questions over the next few weeks...

Click to expand...

1. Every ESL beams in the vertical except the big Soundlabs which are just so tall you can't get out of the soundfield vertically. Do you watch movies standing up or seated? I own Clarity's and their vertical beaming is not a problem for me; when I listen seriously I listen seated. Horizontally they are not as one positional as older panels but the sweet spot is not as wide as an MBL, maybe two listeners wide at best. However, the tonal balance doesn't change as much as the imaging; the sound is still good off axis. When you're walking around cleaning or whatever turn on the NAC for a more balanced sound, otherwise don't use it.

2. ESL's do require careful setup but it is not difficult IMO. You need to be able to pull the speakers out into the room and away from the side walls but other than that they are no more difficult to site than a direct radiator.

3. HK is known for decent current delivery into difficult loads so this might work for you. The 1 ohm impedance of the Clarity occurs at 20kHz where there is very little musical energy so very little demand is made on the amps. Take your receiver down to the shop and hook it up and see.

4. The small ML center channel, the Stage I think. Maybe a Vista if the Stage is out of reach. It is important to match the tonal characteristics of the center channel to the R and L for a seamless blend, personally I prefer the phantom center channel.

5. Why not another pr. of the Vista's.

On further thought the beaming might be worse depending on one's height. @ 6' 3" all the ML's beam vertically when I stand up except the Monoliths and the Statements.

Hi fellow ML Junkies. Why is the limited vertical dispertion looked at in a negative way. Part of the open sound is due to it. Indeed, you can not listen to ML's standing up (unless they are set up for listening standing up). But it also prevents early reflections via floor and ceiling. The same goes for the 30 degree horizontal dispertion. It keeps early reflections away. Just make sure that the ML's are a bit over two feet from the back wall and you have a good chance of having no early reflection colouring the sound (early reflections are reflections that reach the ears within 40 milliseconds after the direct path signal and are 'processed' by the ear as a part of the direct signal, hence colour the sound).

Setting up is not too dificult: place them ten to twelve feet apart, two and a half feet from the rear wall and not closer to a corner than three feet. Point them in 10 degrees and hook up an amp that has a high damping factor and high amps capability. 80% chance that this setting is already amazing. If that causes muddy lows, try a beefier amp. The rest is tweeking bij varying the toeing in and the distance to the rear wall.
Actually, I find placing ML's easier than Wilsons, B&W or other very good dynamic speakers. I had my Vista's set up in 15 minutes to start tweaking after a week of intensive use to break them in.

John Beek said:

Hi fellow ML Junkies. Why is the limited vertical dispertion looked at in a negative way. Part of the open sound is due to it. Indeed, you can not listen to ML's standing up (unless they are set up for listening standing up). But it also prevents early reflections via floor and ceiling. The same goes for the 30 degree horizontal dispertion. It keeps early reflections away. Just make sure that the ML's are a bit over two feet from the back wall and you have a good chance of having no early reflection colouring the sound (early reflections are reflections that reach the ears within 40 milliseconds after the direct path signal and are 'processed' by the ear as a part of the direct signal, hence colour the sound).

Setting up is not too dificult: place them ten to twelve feet apart, two and a half feet from the rear wall and not closer to a corner than three feet. Point them in 10 degrees and hook up an amp that has a high damping factor and high amps capability. 80% chance that this setting is already amazing. If that causes muddy lows, try a beefier amp. The rest is tweeking bij varying the toeing in and the distance to the rear wall.
Actually, I find placing ML's easier than Wilsons, B&W or other very good dynamic speakers. I had my Vista's set up in 15 minutes to start tweaking after a week of intensive use to break them in.

Click to expand...

Nice post, especially for a jr member!

I agree with the first paragraph... and most of the second. However, I would just add that the new xstats seem to prefer a more aggressive toe-in, I'm talking 30 degrees or so of toe in, depending on chair distance from speaker plane.

Joey

Joey_V said:

Nice post, especially for a jr member!

I agree with the first paragraph... and most of the second. However, I would just add that the new xstats seem to prefer a more aggressive toe-in, I'm talking 30 degrees or so of toe in, depending on chair distance from speaker plane.

Joey

Click to expand...

Joey -

The toe-in issue is quite room-dependent. In my room, the Summits like to be aimed almost straight-away. I've tired many positions for the Summits and they sound best with just about no toe-in. I believe the Absolute Sound review of the Summits came to a similar conclusion. Remember: as far as set-up goes, YMMV!

...and some are successful with them toed-out...

jfm said:

...and some are successful with them toed-out...

Click to expand...

This is a joke.....right ??? speaking of jokes....did you hear the one about the Leprechaun who walks into a bar with a steering wheel sticking out of his butt, and the bartender says, " do you know that you have a steering wheel sticking out of you butt" , and the Leprechaun replies, "yes Laddie', it's driving me nuts" !!

No, not a joke! 100% serious. Read that in a review or two. Would be glad to hear if some members have their MLs toed out. Didn't work for me, but was amazed to read it could work for some.


Speaking of bars... A skeleton walks into a bar and says, "Give me a beer...and a mop."

My SL3's are 64" tall and with the marble tile and the spikes it approaches 68" ... I'm 5'8 so even standing up I don't experience any of the vertical beaming ... The wider panels really fill the room too it seems.

aliveatfive said:

Joey -

The toe-in issue is quite room-dependent. In my room, the Summits like to be aimed almost straight-away. I've tired many positions for the Summits and they sound best with just about no toe-in. I believe the Absolute Sound review of the Summits came to a similar conclusion. Remember: as far as set-up goes, YMMV!

Click to expand...

It probably is.... but in my case, I guess I havent found a room in which I didnt prefer almost full toe in.

Thanks for all of the responses, everyone!

I'm a little concerned about where I'm going to place these speakers, though.

My listening room is long and narrow (12' 5" by 23' 6"). If I place them along the short axis of the room, then they are only going to be about six feet apart. If I place them along the long axis of the room, then I would only be sitting about six or seven feet from them. Which solution do you think would work better, or is this room just not right for these speakers?

Robonaut said:

Thanks for all of the responses, everyone!

I'm a little concerned about where I'm going to place these speakers, though.

My listening room is long and narrow (12' 5" by 23' 6"). If I place them along the short axis of the room, then they are only going to be about six feet apart. If I place them along the long axis of the room, then I would only be sitting about six or seven feet from them. Which solution do you think would work better, or is this room just not right for these speakers?

Click to expand...

Robonaut,

First, welcome to the club! Second, don't be too concerned about where and how you are going to place these speakers. Figuring out proper placement and setup and then constantly tweaking and upgrading components is half the fun of this hobby (for example, see all threads concerning Joey).

I expect that your speakers will work along either wall quite well, but you will probably prefer the sound one way or the other and should try to experiment with each setup if you have the time and energy. Don't worry about them only being 6 feet apart. An audio guru / speaker designer once told me that the stereo audio standard was originally designed for speakers to be 6 feet apart and that this was the optimum distance. I don't know how true that is, but my Ascents are just a hair over 6 feet apart in my room setup, and they sound awesome. If you can place them three to five feet out from the front wall and have your listening seats about 9 to 10 feet in front of the speakers, this would probably work great for you. Some room treatment may help with any issues you have such as dampening early reflections from those side walls.

If you position them along the long wall, the speakers would need to be closer to the front wall and the rear wall will be closer to your listening position, so room treatments in those areas may be more critical. I have read several posts on this forum about people prefering placement along the long wall in a room like this, so it might work fine for you. The key is to take your time and find what sounds best to you. Most of all, enjoy the process. Happy Listening,

I agree with Rich ^^^!

Hey Rob, Rich is right "don't worry, be happy" ! My room has the same length as yours but I do have 2' of additional width. Mine are positioned approx 8' apart, , if you go the lengthwise route and position them 6-61/2 feet apart you will need less toe in but you'll be fine.

Enjoy the music !!

I went to the Magnepan dealer today because I had multiple people tell me to check out the Maggies if I liked the MartinLogans.

I listened to the 1.6s, and thought that, while their soundstage and imaging was probably the equal of the MartinLogans, their treble was too harsh and their bass was too weak. Also, they seemed worse for off-axis listening.

Just to make sure my impressions of the Clarities were correct, I went back to the MartinLogan dealer after hearing the Maggies and listened to the Clarities again. Still loved them.

However, I also took the time to listen to the Vistas and the Vantages. I didn't think that the Vantages were really worth the premium over the Vistas, but I thought that the Vistas were substantially better than the Clarities.

Looks like I need to go find some additional funds...