How important is wire/interconnects?

How important is wire and/or interconnects? I dont want to open a can of worms, but I just want to know at which level of the audio adventure should this be addressed?

Joey

But open a can of worms you have

I think MOST people can agree that, whatever the level of importance, spending solid money on wire should likely come after Pre/Amp/Speakers/DAC upgrades...and likely after source as well.

My personal attitude/bias toward it, is that, all wires have their "own" sound...from the bulk wire at Home Depot to the Nordost Valhalla type wire...but they are still all changing the sound somewhat. As long as a wire is shielded well enough to prevent outside noise from getting on the line, it's purely a matter of preference after that...and maybe system synergy (lower inductance wire on a stat, etc.) I have the Anti-Cables, that I bought on a whim, Which basically just look like a solid wire anodized red, and people swear up and down that they sound better than cables costing $1000s of dollars. To them, they do...so at $100 it's a great value...to me, I just refuse to pay more than $100-$200 per cable in what I see as an exercise in psychosomatics

If you want to go for well built stuff that's been reviewed favorably...there's the Anti-Cables (they're a little weird though...harder to use than normal cables, I think) and also River Cable Starflex speaker cable and their associated interconnects. Very reasonably priced, and worked very well for a friend of mine I recommended them for. Nice fit and finish for the price. I read some cable shootout that said these measured better than any of the higher price wire.
http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/audioprinciples/interconnects/speakercable2p3.php Take a look, might help you decide something! Might not

Tara labs also has some stuff on their lower end that is quite nice, that is worth looking into.

Joey_V said:

How important is wire and/or interconnects? I dont want to open a can of worms, but I just want to know at which level of the audio adventure should this be addressed?

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Like the Endless Story, this topic is the Endless Argument never to reach a final decision...

It is up to each individual concerning the following:

1. Do they make a difference?
2. If so, how much of a difference?
3. How much do you want to pay for the difference - if heard?
4. Ignore the rags and other opinions - decide yourself - it is your listening preferences

Four words of advice: "The Cable Company" - Audition Then make your own decisions.

My opinion - yes, they make a difference with IC, Speaker, and Power Cords.

Dan

Joey, I too am a follower of Dan's belief as he has on numerous occasions, "hit the nail on the head" with this topic.

I just recently made a change in IC cabling that I will post a thread on the site shortly.

Joey, I fall squarely into the "cables do make a difference" camp. Moreso than any other component in the chain, the "best" cables in your system are an individual, personal preference. BE VERY AFRAID of ordering cables you have never heard from the internet. Instead consider ONLY those cables which you are able to try IN YOUR SYSTEM before purchase. I think your system has reached a level where clear preferences will quickly manifest themselves. Good luck in your hunt.

Yes, I agree with all above, especially Dan and Dave. The Cable Company is the easiest way to experiment and find out for yourself as you can try a number of option for comparisons sake before plunking down the dinero. I have been to demonstrations where it was obvious what effects good cables can have on a system. I have even demonstrated the effect of a single power cord change to a room full of non-audiophile friends, many of them engineers who theorized that there could be no difference - and yet, they all admited that they heard a noticible improvement.

I haven't heard the Anti-Cables, but I did experiment with a LOT of options (thanks to the Cable Company) before ending up with an all Synergistic Research setup.

As with all else audio, remeber that EVERYTHING matters, experiment with variables in a controlled manner within your system and above all trust your own ears!

When setting up my system, I was lucky enough to have been given a pair of Audioquest speaker cables when I bought my SL3s. I live in a 40-yr old condo complex and Washington, DC power doesn't inspire a lot of confidence. So I bought a line conditioner and a pair of Signal power cables to connect the MLs. The Signal cables weren't cheap at $70 for 7ft but I can't find the OEM ones and Signal seems highly rated.

I've read lots of articles about people paying hundreds or thousands of dollars per linear foot for speaker cables but I just don't get it.

Isn't there a law of diminishing returns at some point?

Yeah, if I had $100k in Hi-Fi equipment I might be looking at $1000 in speaker cabling as being no big deal but when my system is worth (for what I paid) $3k? That just seems ridiculous. I also went with Monoprice for the IC cabling. Should I have gotten better? *shrug* Maybe but I've already been burned by Monster and their BS marketing/pricing scamming vs Belkin or others so I'm not about to just throw down $$ because of anecdotes

I figure power is where the most noise is going to come from and that speaker cables and interconnects are way down on the list.

I can always upgrade them later if I can find ones that are universally praised and allow in-home auditions with full return policies.

As someone who has spent thousands of dollars on cables I know they make a difference. This will sound crazy but here we go. If your system has the "same" quality of components and you just switch the amp, pre etc around a little and change cables. WOW! You will be blown away. My point is, as long as the equipment is good enough to hear subtle changes IMO cabling can sometimes do more for sound then anything else. It sounds crazy but I have found this. I have also noticed this with power conditioining. I use the Richard Gray Products and I will tell you that those pieces did more for my system than anything. Please don't forget that my system was all equally matched high end products. The cable area is worse then any area in terms of the "crazy" factor. You can go nuts with it. I strongly believe if you pick a well made popular cable you will be happy. It is like anything else you can spend to whatever you want. Oh, and have more money in cables than equipment which I have listened to a wilson system with $30,000 Transparent cables. Yes, the cables were more than the speakers. That's NUTS. My Summit system sounded much better IMO.

Again, not to beat the power issue but do you ever notice that your system just does not sound consistent through the day? More than likely it is poor quality power at that time. This is due to the four houses on one transformer and everyone running high power appliances at the same time. Again, sound crazy but it is true. I went through it.

charliemike said:

The Signal cables weren't cheap at $70 for 7ft but I can't find the OEM ones and Signal seems highly rated.

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In "Power Cord Land", the Signal Cable PC's are a real bargain.

Voltex is a great cheap power cord to try and is very similar if not the same as some stock cords.

The Signal Cable PC I compared to a PS Audio Lab II cable (5x the price) and heard no differences. But the Signal and the PS Audio were much better than the Voltex. Just my results in my setup - your results may be different.

Dan

A can of worms ? nooo...

... no, it's not a can of worms. It's a truckload of snakes, the boa constrictor variety. Anyway, I have to add my 2 c to all that's been wisely said.

1) You are entitled to play with cables only when your equipment is revealing enough to let the differences show. At Joey's, it's the case, but it is not something to take for granted.

2) The cables that mostly influence the sound are IMHO the ones between preamp and power amp, and between power amp and loudspeakers.

3) Cable juggling is great fun if done wisely, i.e. on eBay. If you buy a cable for $200, it's very probable that you will sell it for an equivalent amount, should you be dissatisfied with it - no loss, so you can have a big time. Out of my 100 eBay transactions, about 35 are cables.

4) Yes, Maria, cables do need burn in.

5) No, Joe, directional cables aren't directional. After 100 hours they sound the same, regardless of the initial burn-in direction.

6) The best cables are the ones that you don't need. Therefore I went for a GCC-250 - look Ma, no preamp therefore no cables there.

lugano said:

2) The cables that mostly influence the sound are IMHO the ones between preamp and power amp, and between power amp and loudspeakers.

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Interesting, as I found the IC between my source and Pre Amp showed the most influence in my setup.

Dan

IMO I have found that ALL the cables made a huge difference. I would say that the speaker wire probably is the one that wowed me the most. Again, my other cables were still very good. On the other hand, the power cables on my amp, CD and DAC were the biggest improvement for the power cords. Until, my BC-68 on the Summits.

DTB300 said:

Interesting, as I found the IC between my source and Pre Amp showed the most influence in my setup.

Dan

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Dan, it depends on what your source is. Mc turntable, tuner or CD player ?

Today's CD players have an output level strong enough to deliver directly to the power amp. The preamp, in that case, has only one role - he's the king of the fair only because he's got a volume control (and a source switch). He does NOTHING on the signal, only attenuates it - and he's just a bunch of electronics more in the pathway. If you can get rid of, go for it - I did.

Cables are the components that finishes the system off. After the system is set then, IMO, is the time to decide on cables. I like AudioQuest cables and Zu power cords IMS. I do find the effect of cable to be very audible but system resolution is important. The better the system the more audible the cables can be.

jtwrace said:

IMO I have found that ALL the cables made a huge difference. I would say that the speaker wire probably is the one that wowed me the most.

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I can understand and support this. LS cables run for meters, are antennas exposed into the wild and are in charge of the last mile. Freakin' important. And also - given their length - often the most expensive piece of snake.

lugano said:

Dan, it depends on what your source is. Mc turntable, tuner or CD player ?

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Agreed!! And dependent on the rest of the components downstream.

I would say that an IC between any components in the chain has an affect. But each systems "top spot" will be different from system to system - that infamous "synergy" thing.

So, if someone is interested in exploring cables and PC's, each has to try them between all components and make your determination from there. BTW, I was not impying the source to Pre or Amp is the top place, it just was in my setup.

Dan

Gotcha, so cables do make some sort of a difference, whether it's for the better or worse, it's all system dependent at some point down the line. Got it.

Now, I suppose I'm going to move up the cable chain in a year or two, I'm going to stick with what I got and move up certain components before touching the cables.

Thanks guys!

Joey

Joey_V said:

Now, I suppose I'm going to move up the cable chain in a year or two, I'm going to stick with what I got and move up certain components before touching the cables.

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I bet that you are already touching the cables, Joey. You're so vicious )

And don't try to sell us the "year or two" thingie. I bet that in march 2007 all the cables you've ever had are already sporting a new owner.

Hi Joey,

Few thoughts -

Cables are the area of audio where so much has been spent by so many to achieve so little.

You are in the US - use the cable company.

Differences can be significant but I would never describe them as huge. Class AB to A is about as big as it gets in my experience (flicking the switch on your Plinius)

There is little correlation between price and quality.

Burn in is a reality but like components the quality will usually be evident straight out of the box.

No use looking at proportion of total system value - we have a very good result with cabling being less than 3% of the system replacement value at retail prices. One of my audio friends is nearer 40% in cables of total retail replacement cost

Kevin

Sigh...

I really try to avoid this topic when it comes up, but...

Quality interconnects should make a difference. The signal levels involved are low enough that outside influences will make a difference in what you hear. Good ICs will isolate the signal from those influences.

Speaker cable - above a given gauge, and using stranded wire, I don't buy it. Unless you run your speaker cable parallel to AC power sources, very little can compete with the wattage you're sending down the line. Connectors make a difference to the extent that they securely connect to both ends of the service and resist corrosion or oxidation (one of the main features of gold). Copper is the second-best electrical conductor past pure silver, so that isn't a consideration. None of us use superconductors...

Running electrical signals down copper wire at the levels and frequencies that we deal with will not physically alter the characteristics of the wire. I don't buy "burn in" for wire. I'm open-minded; if someone can point me to a reputable source (not a cable dealer or an audio rag) that gives an explanation of how this is possible, I might be convinced.

Power cables: I call bull on this, with the only possible exception being if you are feeding them off of a power conditioner. Otherwise, in the US, the stuff behind the walls is low grade 14 or 12 gauge solid copper in a plastic sheath (aka Romex). The 3-6 foot difference in premium power cord will not compensate for the 20 feet of crap cable in the wall. The power feed from the local residential step-down transformer may even be aluminum wire.

Everyone has opinions - those are mine. Feel free to argue .