Please recommend Surround receiver

Greetings from a newbie.
I need some advice.
My room is 21X21X10(H)
Fronts: ML Mosaics
Center and rears: ML Vignettes
Sub: ML Grotto
current receiver: Yamaha RX-V2500
DVD: Pioneer Elite AV-59i

I don't really understand the power needed to drive my speakers. It seems that I have to REALLY turn up the volume, then it just doesn't sound good. I watcha a LOT of movies, and want to maximize the investment in my ML's. I am going to change the location of my rears from the back ceiling, to the side walls. I am concerned that I need to upgrade my receiver.

Thoughts?
TIA
Bill

Bill,
If you're looking for a reciever that will kick and drive everything nicely, I would go the Sunfire TGR-3. Big bucks though. Not sure of your budget.
I have a Rotel 1067 driving a 2 channel system and I could still use more power. Would kill it with full 5.1.
If you have pre-outs, I would do an external 5 channel amp. Lots of good stuff out there at reasonable prices. When I eventually do go 5.1, this is probably the route I will take.

Need details

Bill,

What's your budget and how much power do you need? I'm a big fan of Denon. Depending on budget, you might want to consider going with Outlaw separates.

GG

Gordon Gray said:

Bill,

What's your budget and how much power do you need? I'm a big fan of Denon. Depending on budget, you might want to consider going with Outlaw separates.

GG

Click to expand...

I just picked up a Denon 2307CI after agonizing over Outlaw separates.

The Montages need 175wpc and the Vignette 125wpc. The Denon by itself won't power that load.

$$ is definitely a factor here. If I were him, I'd see if I could find a Receiver that does 125wpc at 6 ohms and then get a 2ch amp for the Montages. The Denon 2807 will do 140wpc at 6ohms but the THD on that is .7% (vs .05% at 8ohms). It's $800 so I would look for something else. A couple of outlaw monos would run him $500 used ($625 new) or he could look at a Rotel 2-ch that would probably be in the $500-700 range.

Wow, quick replies.
Budget is about $1500.
I do not understand the power requirements that I need, that is my ignorance/lack of education!

The Yama surround receiver pushes 130W per channel, but I don't understand how this relates to what I need to properly power my Mosaics, Grotto sub, and Vignette center and surrounds.

I am simply not getting the effect that I am looking for, and trying to figure out the problem.

TIA
Bill

For that price range look at Outlaw audio receiver and also separates. There are not in the class of Lexicon or Meridian etc but have gotten very good reviews (990, 970, 1070 etc).

Joel

billman1965 said:

Wow, quick replies.
Budget is about $1500.
I do not understand the power requirements that I need, that is my ignorance/lack of education!

The Yama surround receiver pushes 130W per channel, but I don't understand how this relates to what I need to properly power my Mosaics, Grotto sub, and Vignette center and surrounds.

I am simply not getting the effect that I am looking for, and trying to figure out the problem.

TIA
Bill

Click to expand...

Here you go:

The Mosaics need 175 watts
The Vignettes need 125 watts
The Grotto has its own amplifier so you're good there.

I don't know about that Yamaha but you want to find something that produces at least 125 wpc for your Vignettes and then find a good used 2-ch Amp for your Mosaics.

(Note: Thanks to IWalker I understand this now)

You hook it up like this:

DVD -> Receiver Pre-Out -> 2-ch Amp -> Mosiacs
DVD -> Receiver Speaker Out-> Vignettes
DVD -> Receiver LFE/Sub Out -> Grotto

The Receiver will still be doing all the 5.1/7.1 processing and the pre-out will pass the signal unamplified to the 2-ch amplifier. From there the Amp will put out the 175watts you need for your Mosaics.

I have heard Pioneer Elites power Claritys and Frescos and they sound pretty good so I don't know that the THD levels will be that noticeable unless you've got a good ear for that (which I do not).

My advice is $800 for a good 7.1 receiver with Pre-outs that can drive the Vignettes and then a 2-ch Amp for $700 that will do the Mosaics. It's entirely possible to do this for that kind of $$. Don't get a pre-processor because if you do, you'll need a 5 or 7 channel amp to power all your speakers. A pre-processor has no speaker outs as far as I've seen.

I just went with a Denon 2307CI which will do at least 125wpc at 6ohms should I decide to get Vignettes for my surrounds. (I'm going phantom center right now) but that extra Rotel channel will come in handy if I go with a ESL center. I got it for $570 shipped. I found a 3-ch Rotel RB-933 for $700 shipped that does 300wpc.

This setup will at least allow me to actually listen to my SL3s (which have a much higher demand for power than your Mosaics) ... Right now I have a 5.1 Onkyo receiver that can't even do 80wpc so that had to be replaced.

Hope this helps. Keep asking questions, we'll help you as we can.

BTW, Audiogon is your friend

If you really want to be happy with the sound you get from your next receiver/amp, I suggest you take your time and do a lot of research to find out exactly what will work the best for you for your price range. A few things to consider:

Don't just look at max. power output per channel, this is often overstated. Find out how much continuous power (rms) the amp puts out per channel with all channels driven. Understand that even this doesn't tell you the whole story. Quality components, such as power supplies, transformers, etc. which are found in quality gear result in better sound at high spls. The old "you get what you pay for" adage definitely applies.

Also accept that there is a possibility you want more from the speakers than they are designed to give. I don't know because I have no experience with the mosaics, but they are some of the smaller speakers in Martin Logan's line, and 21' by 21' is a big room. The Mosaics in that room are probably not going to give the same quality of sound and sound pressure levels that larger speakers would give.

Having said all that, I can tell you that my room size is similar to yours and when I upgraded from a Yamaha RX-V2095 to quality tube amplification on my Ascents, it was like night and day.

In your price range I suggest you look into Sunfire and Outlaw Audio for starters, particularly used equipment on Audiogon. Personally, I wouldn't go with less than 200 watts per channel to make sure I had plenty of headroom.

The outlaw 2200 monoblocs go for $300 apiece and put out 200 watts per channel. You can buy four for $1200 and they will throw in a fifth one for free (in case you are planning on getting a center channel). The model 7500 is a five channel 200 wpc amp that costs $1600. With these amps, you could continue to use your yamaha as a preamp.

Just some thoughts for your consideration. Hope it helps.

I would get a used Acram AVR350. They are awesome!

Rich said:

Don't just look at max. power output per channel, this is often overstated. Find out how much continuous power (rms) the amp puts out per channel with all channels driven.

Click to expand...

Excellent points which I'm glad you brought up.

charliemike said:

You hook it up like this:

DVD -> Receiver Pre-Out -> 2-ch Amp -> Mosiacs

Click to expand...

I have a question. Can you connect the mosaics to the speaker output directly or is it because you are recommending a pre-amp for each mosaic.

How critical is the pre-amp?

thx

Venkat

Contrary to previous posts, you do not "need" 175 watts to drive ML Mosaic or Vignette speakers. Hell, you don't need that for Summits! The Mosaics are easy to drive with 50 wpc if its clean. The Vignette can get by easily with the same power. The problem in all threads like this is how big a room do you have and how loud do you like to play it. I drive a set of Aeon i speakers and a Cinema center with a 75 wpc Rotel receiver and it sounds great. My room is 17 x 13 and closed off from the rest of the house. I rarely if ever listen at peak levels of more than 90 db. If I listened at louder levels or in a much bigger room, I might want more power. You can always use more power but you do not always need it. Power quality is more important than quantity. Rotel and Arcam make fine receivers that provide all the power and quality I need. The Sunfire is grossly overpriced IMO. For that kind of money, get the Arcam 350, and pocket $1500, or get separates that are not rolled off in the treble like the Sunfire. I am not a fan of Denon either although I have not owned one in four years or so. The Pioneer Elite and new Yamaha receivers appear to be quite good too.

If you are stuck in receiverland (like me), at that price range you cannot go wrong with Denon or Harmon Kardon. You will get a bigger bang for your buck by buying used as well. Those brands are pretty much bulletproof when it comes to reliability.

In your case it would be better to try and arrange a listening session or getting a 30 day return policy before commiting.

Just another vote for the Outlaw separates. Upgrading becomes more simple and cost effective with separates.

tonyc said:

Just another vote for the Outlaw separates. Upgrading becomes more simple and cost effective with separates.

Click to expand...

Make mine another vote for Outlaw. I use the 950, and it works absolutely great, especially for the price paid...

Peter

attyonline said:

Contrary to previous posts, you do not "need" 175 watts to drive ML Mosaic or Vignette speakers. Hell, you don't need that for Summits! The Mosaics are easy to drive with 50 wpc if its clean. The Vignette can get by easily with the same power. The problem in all threads like this is how big a room do you have and how loud do you like to play it. I drive a set of Aeon i speakers and a Cinema center with a 75 wpc Rotel receiver and it sounds great. My room is 17 x 13 and closed off from the rest of the house. I rarely if ever listen at peak levels of more than 90 db. If I listened at louder levels or in a much bigger room, I might want more power. You can always use more power but you do not always need it. Power quality is more important than quantity. Rotel and Arcam make fine receivers that provide all the power and quality I need. The Sunfire is grossly overpriced IMO. For that kind of money, get the Arcam 350, and pocket $1500, or get separates that are not rolled off in the treble like the Sunfire. I am not a fan of Denon either although I have not owned one in four years or so. The Pioneer Elite and new Yamaha receivers appear to be quite good too.

Click to expand...

I'm not being argumentative ... 50 watts? Really?

charliemike said:

I'm not being argumentative ... 50 watts? Really?

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50 watts, courtesy of my AES Six Pacs, is more than adequate for my original CLS's. Even more so with the bass rolled of at 100 to 125 Hz to my sub. I'll take quality vs quantity any day.

jjqiv said:

50 watts, courtesy of my AES Six Pacs, is more than adequate for my original CLS's. Even more so with the bass rolled of at 100 to 125 Hz to my sub. I'll take quality vs quantity any day.

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Okay. So, why does Martin Logan recommend 175w? Is that peak?

jjqiv said:

50 watts, courtesy of my AES Six Pacs, is more than adequate for my original CLS's. Even more so with the bass rolled of at 100 to 125 Hz to my sub. I'll take quality vs quantity any day.

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Sounds great. Now what "quality" 50 wpc system would you recommend the man in his $1500 price range. I agree that you don't need as much wattage with quality tube-driven or Class A solid state amps, but they are out of his ballpark. You guys are comparing apples to oranges.

Bill,

On the avsforum, you'll see a discussion between me and another (short term) Primare SPA21 owner who bought the receiver at the ubelievable price of $1250 from Magnolia on the East Coast. That integrated amp retails for $4000. I'm using it to drive my new Aeon i's right now and I don't have to turn it up much to get the Aeons going. I highly recommend it if you want a good musical amp. There was a very good UK review on the amp & it is way under-rated at 100 Watts per channel. Do some googling on it and even though there aren't a whole lot of articles on the SPA21, they all seem favorable. Hopefully they have a Magnolia in your neck of the woods.

Good luck,

Z

billman1965 said:

Wow, quick replies.
Budget is about $1500.
I do not understand the power requirements that I need, that is my ignorance/lack of education!

The Yama surround receiver pushes 130W per channel, but I don't understand how this relates to what I need to properly power my Mosaics, Grotto sub, and Vignette center and surrounds.

I am simply not getting the effect that I am looking for, and trying to figure out the problem.

TIA
Bill

Click to expand...