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Thread: Monolith refresh - Panels, woofers and rail stain updates

  1. #16
    Super User C.A.P's Avatar
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    great rite up so far ! Don't expect any thing great till the Mylar and the panel break in for a few months . Then watch out it is like night and day with them . They suddenly sound fantastic. great stuff!
     
    Martin Logan... Odyssey...Krell KSA 100s...Krell KRC3 Pre Amp...Krell Connect Media server/DAC
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  2. #17
    Super User JonFo's Avatar
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    Default Woofer fritzed

    Well, after almost a year, one of the Peerless drivers gave up the ghost. I just noticed it yesterday while running some test tones (sine sweeps from 16hz to 160Hz), all of the sudden at around 80hz and up, there is this nasty buzzing sound from the left Monolith. Approaching it, it's the dang 12" woofer.
    The right speaker is fine.

    Guess I played a movie or some music with a little too much gusto sometime in the recent month or two

    With 200w into each driver (which while not rated, Iíd guess nominally 150w), I think the amp outguns the driver by a good bit. Guess the fritzed (voice coil rub) driver is proof.

    So, what to do? I guess I was upset at the peerless for dying so soon, so I looked around and will try something a bit different just for grins. If it doesnít work out, Iíll just order another peerless.


    During research, I found there are few 12Ē designed for mid-bass that arenít pro-music oriented (which means more care is placed on efficiency and thermal management than on ultimate sound quality), although some of those drivers did look good. But no SQ measurements on them anywhere I can find.
    I did find a nice mid-bass woofer thatís been used in several commercial home speaker designs, and is fairly popular with the DIY crowd.

    The HiVi M12 is nice unit with very nice looking mid-range extension and decent performance down to 60 or 80hz. In a sealed 85 liter cabinet, it should be F3 at 60hz, just right for my application. So I ordered 2 (on sale at $105/ea at e-Speakers.com).



    Compared to the peerless it has slightly higher mass, but still has good extension. The aluminum cone should help with cone resonances. Itís SPL abilities will still need to be determined. If Iím nervous about anything itís that.

    Will pop them in next Saturday and tune them quickly (SleepySurf shows up the next day for a demo, yikes, got to get going fast).

    Frankly, Iím getting closer and closer to just building a line Array of mid-bases for the Monoliths. These 12Ē drivers are just too wimpy, even when constrained to a limited frequency range. Ideally, 4 X 10Ē or 12Ē mid-bass drivers per column would do the trick.
    Jonathan

    System #45 (Monolith IIIx, Sequell IIb, SL3XC)

  3. #18
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    I actually looked into that driver for a direct replacement for the Quest 's I have. I didn't end up doing it as I moved them into another room that was much better suited for the bass. I would like to know your findings on these !
    Martin Logan... Odyssey...Krell KSA 100s...Krell KRC3 Pre Amp...Krell Connect Media server/DAC
    My system here

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    Hi Jon,

    The Rives reference system on Audiogon used to feature Monoliths powered with Krell and Levinson via a Bryston 10b. He had replaced the woofer with Focal Audiom drivers. I know Focal went through a phase of not supplying when they transitioned to JM Labs but I think this is no longer the case. It may be that he could point you to a path that has already been travelled.

    Kevin

  5. #20
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    Jon, don't knock yourself out trying to do the repair on short notice just for me. I'd be happy just to SEE your setup, even if I can't actually HEAR it!
    Squeezebox Touch/Bel Canto DAC 3.5VB + Oppo BDP-95 > Conrad-Johnson CT5 preamp and Premier 350 amp > ML Expressions 13A. Dual ML BalancedForce 210 subs. Audience Au24e I/C's, speaker cable.
    Click here to see my entire sytem. Member of the Suncoast Audiophile Society.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwr View Post
    Hi Jon,

    The Rives reference system on Audiogon used to feature Monoliths powered with Krell and Levinson via a Bryston 10b. He had replaced the woofer with Focal Audiom drivers. I know Focal went through a phase of not supplying when they transitioned to JM Labs but I think this is no longer the case. It may be that he could point you to a path that has already been travelled.

    Kevin

    Thanks Kevin, but I've changed the requiremnts in my application, the driver only needs to cover 60 to 315 Hz.
    Some of the Focal drivers (very nice BTW) in the 12" are more for lower end. But some actually have decent mid's. But cost is a challenge, at $800 the Audiom 13W is not cheap. For that money, I'm building arrays.
    Jonathan

    System #45 (Monolith IIIx, Sequell IIb, SL3XC)

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by sleepysurf View Post
    Jon, don't knock yourself out trying to do the repair on short notice just for me. I'd be happy just to SEE your setup, even if I can't actually HEAR it!
    Hi Alan, no worries, it's a hobby.

    This will be the third woofer swap in these Monoliths, so I'm getting good at it

    It actually does not sound bad now, as I never noticed the problem except with test tones. Goes to show ya how well we actually hear things.
    But now that I know about it, I can tease it out of the wall of sound.

    Maybe we'll burn out the new HiVi during your demo, that way I can just proceed to the line array for the September meet
    Jonathan

    System #45 (Monolith IIIx, Sequell IIb, SL3XC)

  8. #23
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    Sorry Jon - I somehow missed the part of your post where you mentioned you had already sourced some drivers.

    I knew the Focals were not cheap but I had no idea they were that expensive.

    Kevin

  9. #24
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    We have a new Swan's/HiVi store that opened a mile from me. They have some pretty compelling speaker designs (I have a pair of S200a's in a secondary system), and are also competing with Scanspeak and Seas in the driver market.

    Looking forward to your demo!
    Squeezebox Touch/Bel Canto DAC 3.5VB + Oppo BDP-95 > Conrad-Johnson CT5 preamp and Premier 350 amp > ML Expressions 13A. Dual ML BalancedForce 210 subs. Audience Au24e I/C's, speaker cable.
    Click here to see my entire sytem. Member of the Suncoast Audiophile Society.

  10. #25
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    C. A. P.,

    Were you looking at the HiVi M12 for mid and low bass, or were you just wanting mid bass for use with a sub? What did you wind up using finally? I'm curious, because I might want to do a woofer upgrade in my Quests.

    Adrian

  11. #26
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    Adrian, C.A.P, here's another 12" driver that would be a better replacement of the original if keeping original crossover points, the HiVi W12:
    http://www.swanspeaker.com/product/htm/view.asp?id=111

    The W12 is a Kevlar reinforced paper cone designed for lower extension and works better in a sealed box than the M12 (M12 in a sealed box has a very high F3). In a Quest box, it should go to about 48 or 50 Hz. Good enough to cross over to a sub.

    The highs on the W12 are still quite good, definitely well past the 125Hz crossover point of a Quest or the 200Hz point of a reQuest; also, the x-over is only 12 dB / Octave, so the 'woofer' is still putting out substantial volume into the mid-bass.
    Youíll need to add Dacron stuffing to the box to bring down effective volume closer to 75 liters for best results.

    My experience leads me to recommend drivers that will better match the panel and play clean up to 500Hz than something that will be focused more on the <60Hz extension. The Ďintegrationí one hears so much about is really governed by the behavior of the 80 Ė 400hz range in the woofer.

    After all, in most rooms, a speaker sitting 3í out from either wall, will just never produce decent low (sub 60Hz) bass, so use a sub if you want to shake the ground
    Jonathan

    System #45 (Monolith IIIx, Sequell IIb, SL3XC)

  12. #27
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    Thanks Jonathan,

    That's great advice. I know it sounds strange, but I still have to wrap my brain around the fact that I might want to use a sub with my Quests. In my mind, I've heard what seems to be life-like bass coming out of the 12s in terms of low end extension. What probably needs to happens is I need to get myself to Atlanta and hear your system. Isn't the Quest woofer rated to go down to around 28 Hz +/- 2 or 3 db? Of course, with the original Xover points the midbass will suffer.

    In the description of the W12, it states that it's optimized for medium to large size vented cabinets. However, in the specs it says that it is for sealed cabinets. What gives?

    Adrian
    Last edited by jedi35; 07-30-2007 at 04:09 PM.

  13. #28
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    After moving mine to a much bigger room my bass cleaned right up. Is it earth shattering bass ? No ! But its a solid bass. It seems to damn near pressurize the room at times with the right music. The room might really be helping as its a 3rd level in a quad house that is partially underground with cement footings. However there is a regular wall on one side to to help with the brightness.

    I have tried (not very hard ) to integrate a sub(Sunfire True sub) but it seemed to muddle up things to much even with the x over at 40 hz. I guess some playing around with placement may help but I really like it with out. (right now, ) My Theta Miles may be playing hell to with the sub integration as its balanced to the amp and has RCA outs for its other which I have tried a sub on. It seems like they are subduing the signal or something. The simplicity of this system is its own demise in this instance, I think !

    I do know that this sub is capable of good bas where it sits as it is used daily for my 5.1 TV system and with a few DTS discs can move your hair and push your guts in.


    If a new driver would better the Quest in the bass area with out making it muddy I am all for it. However: I don't want to move laterally and then say well its mid bass is better but it needs a sub for low end. As of right now with the new room I think I have the best of both worlds ! (for now)
    Martin Logan... Odyssey...Krell KSA 100s...Krell KRC3 Pre Amp...Krell Connect Media server/DAC
    My system here

  14. #29
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    speaking of a nice sub...strap the ACI SV-12's face to face in a 2 cu. ft. cabinet isobaric downfiring ...cross it fast at 40 hz and place it in the corner...or you can sell them to me!

  15. #30
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    C. A. P.,

    Thanks for your response. So, it seems that your woofers are doing a good enough job for you without the use of a sub. That's great. It sounds like you are running full range, without bi-amping, right? I think that I should also be able to get along without a sub, although the system might not have all th power of the best systems in all ranges. I'm bi-amped(to a degree) and have been fairly happy with my low bass extension. I was able to boost the mid bass by crossing over at higher frequencies, and by using a variac to tame the panels down a bit. I have lost a bit on the low side in the process, and would be interested in finding a woofer that would let me stay crossed over where I am(around 315) and give me a little more on the low end than what I have now. Jonathan has helped me understand that great mid bass and great low bass are hard to get without using a sub, so there are some trade offs. Still, I'm enjoying the search or "quest" for better sound in my room. At this point, the next thing that I need to do is to totally disconnect the internal Xover boards in the speakers, and get the DBX DriveRack 260, along with whatever else I need to start analyzing the response in my room.

    Adrian

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