To Tube... or not to Tube

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rennthusiast

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Hello fellow ML owners,

I've read two very different schools of thought on going tube vs. solid state for Martin Logan speakers. One of the more convincing arguments for solid state takes the benefit of large capacitors to provide the quick bursts of juice that the panels need. A claimed downside of tube amplifiers is a noticeable rolloff at higher frequencies due to the ML's differing impedance levels across the panel.

I'm VERY curious on the thoughts of the Forum... Are Tubes a no-no for Martin Logan speakers? Or is there just a sufficient amount of tube power that is necessary to appropriately drive MLs?

Thanks in advance!
 
I utilized tube amps (Rouge M180's) when driving my previous speakers (Logan Spire), loved them. AS for the high frequency roll off, not an issue for me, I'm 64 years old !

Oh and one other thing , welcome to the group !
 
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I am currently using a McIntosh M275 (tube) to drive panels and a MC152 (SS) to drive the woofers of my ESL 9.

Doing some testing I used the MC152 to drive both as opposed to Bi-Amping as I'm currently doing. I did notice a softer higher frequency sound from the tube amp as opposed to the SS. Like twitch54 says I'm also 64 and the current Bi-Amping set up sounds great to me.:D

Hope that helps and welcome aboard.
 
Hola. The eternal debate. To my ears, and they are more midrange than highs, I like better the tube amp. I am using my CLXs a Conrad Johnson Classic One Twenty SE, and believe me, the CLXs are singing as never before. It is not a matter of highs, it is a matter of quality sound!. Too much highs, make to have the drummer at the back of the stage with the cymbals at the front of the stage...the plastic man is a drummer?
What I do like not necessary must be your liking. The specs are just that, specs!...I do trust my final judges of what my brain likes. The final judges are my ears. The benefit of the tube is the harmonic texture and harmonic distortion. This distortion is even, and the even harmonics are the culprit to award the timbre. With the even harmonics, we know how the musical instruments have its own sound, and voices too. Odd harmonics are not part of these, and causes to sound strident, metallic, or not natural. The distortion of the SS is odd, and does not belong to the timbre of the musical instruments or voices...a reason why usually, the tube is more pleasant to listen. I do know that out there are very good brands that are made with SS. MY ears like tubes, not SS. This is my liking and I do not give credit to the specs, the specs are just a guide, and does not tell how good the product is or if you are going to like it or not.
If you like SS is OK. If you like tubes is OK. Do some critical listenings and choose the one that your ears like, not what I say or your friend says.
Happy listening!
 
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As another member of the 64 Y.O. club, my vote is tubes. You need to try good tube and SS equipment and see which you prefer.

I assure good tube equipment can drive ML's beautifully. It really is a personal preference.

Welcome to our group that has no shortage of personal biases.
 
Tubes on the panels. Make sure the tube amp is up to the task, otherwise, you'll hear high-frequency roll-off.
For the bass, you'll need a good solid-state amp as well. Keep in mind that the fundamental frequency of male vocal fall in the range of 85-180Hz, and typical female fundamental frequency fall in the range of 165-255Hz. These frequencies are covered with the bass unit, not the panels. So, in summary, the tube amp for the panels and the solid-state counterpart need to play nice with each other. Once your system is 'dialed in', you'll be rewarded with glorious sound!
 
I failed to mention I have a Mac MEN220 Room Correction System between the preamp and amps. It took a great deal of effort and time to "dial in" the active crossover settings but I like it.

I do have one question for you gurus :D? Relative to voltage gain one of the ML engineers strongly suggested (with no explanation) I use amps to match this spec when bi-amping. The 275 (tube) is rated at 20.5db while the 152 (SS) is rated at 26db. In my estimation theses numbers are not close but they work for me. What would be detrimental to this current set up relating to sound and/or damage to the equipment. Any thoughts would be appreciated.
 
Sid, that's a pretty stark gain differential, but the MEN220 will help compensate, first by allowing you to set the gain for the SS amp much lower if needed, and further, the Room EQ will adjust the high end to fit the curve you define.

The lack of gain in the tube amp means it will probably be driven into clipping if you try and push it, and the Room EQ is likely goosing the highs to compensate for the tub-amps natural roll off (unless you can limit the upper freq. range of EQ like one can with Room Perfect or Dirac). So that amp will limit the overall SPL you can reach, and at the limit, you could potentially have bloated low-end as the SS amp can keep pushing harder.

So here's my brief take on tubes: most people use them as a form of EQ/sound effect, see all the previous comments on softening of the highs. Tubes also have a more pleasing form of distortion when clipping, so that's viewed as a positive. And I'd agree, I heard my Monolith's demoed by the previous owner with a 50w Class-A SS amp and the quality at clipping was not good.

But a good strong SS amp that doubles it's output with each halving of impedance is extremely clean, and if powerful enough, can play really, really loud.
What many object to in this case, is that the highs can be overwhelming, but it's not because of the SS amp, it's because of room acoustics. If one treats the room right, primarily dampening the rear wave from the panels, it can be very satisfying. But it can require a literal ton of treatments for a big multichannel setup. See my rig for an example.

So in my view a good SS amp is the way to go, and I recommend room treatments, + room EQ to deal with the room-induced resonances, which will be there regardless and need to be mitigated.

Using tube amps and fancy exotic cables as random forms of tone control are suboptimal, except for your dealers pocket.
 
Jonathan, thanks for the explanation and input. At my age I don't require extreme volume so I've never (nor intend) to push my equipment to the extremes. Your suggestion of using the MEN220 to better match the gain is intriguing requiring further research on my part is required. That's why we call this a hobby.:D

Plans for next year upon my wife's retirement and our subsequent relocation, I will finally have a dedicated listening room. At this point I will build a new system with a pair of 15A and my BF210 subs. My current plans are for a 450W per channel SS stereo system or a mono 600 W per channel SS amps.

BTW your HT systems is VERY impressive and I may move into that some day. Right now I'll just try to get better at my 2 channel stuff.
 

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