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Thread: Is the Martin Logan brand declining?

  1. #31
    Super User RCHeliGuy's Avatar
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    Of course Ethan Winer's "The Audio Expert Everything You Need to Know About Audio" is out in print now, so people can just go there save a lot of time and avoid all the debates.


    https://www.amazon.com/Audio-Expert-.../dp/0240821009
     
    Mark
    JRiver Media Server 21 on Windows 10 -> (Async USB) -> OPPO 105D -> Emotiva XPA-2 gen 2 -> Martin Logan Ethos -> my ears

  2. #32
    Super User Brad225's Avatar
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    Maggi 20.7 is retail of $14,000 what is the actual purchase price after discount. CLX's are $25,400 but I believe i paid $18,000 new. Is that still a lot of money, absolutely. I thought a long time before I started looking seriously. I would think 15a are really around the CLX price and the 13a maybe around the old retail of Summit?

    I am just curious of the actual purchase price rather than retail for comparison sake. I don't think I would have paid retail for them that is more than we paid for our first house.

  3. #33
    Super User Brad225's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RCHeliGuy View Post
    Of course Ethan Winer's "The Audio Expert Everything You Need to Know About Audio" is out in print now, so people can just go there save a lot of time and avoid all the debates.


    https://www.amazon.com/Audio-Expert-.../dp/0240821009

    WOW, did he sell both copies he had printed. Sorry I couldn't resist Mark.

  4. #34
    Super User Gordon Gray's Avatar
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    The Amazon reviews were pretty positive with the vast majority of them being posted in 2012.

    PS: I'm not sure what's the relevance to this thread but whatever.
    Last edited by Gordon Gray; 12-25-2017 at 09:36 AM. Reason: PS

  5. #35
    Super User RCHeliGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon Gray View Post
    The Amazon reviews were pretty positive with the vast majority of them being posted in 2012.

    PS: I'm not sure what's the relevance to this thread but whatever.
    Actually I was responding to the post before mine that said a bunch of the people who have been at this a while and who have contributed lots of useful reference type posts that get buried over time don't necessarily feel like rehashing the same thing over and over again.

    Maybe being nominated for 2018 TEC award from NAMM in the Audio Education Technology category means nothing to some of you. I suppose if he wins an award, it still wouldn't mean anything to some of you. As someone who owns and has read his copy, I thought it was a very done piece of reference material that was sorely needed.
    Mark
    JRiver Media Server 21 on Windows 10 -> (Async USB) -> OPPO 105D -> Emotiva XPA-2 gen 2 -> Martin Logan Ethos -> my ears

  6. #36
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    I think that associating lack of interest in this forum versus how well ML are doing is a fairly dodgy assertion to make.

    Audio forums are not the newish things they used to be years ago and people have to a large extent discovered whether they fit in with particular forums.

    Many have been here and gone, like other forums, after having a hard time or just posting rubbish. Once bitten, twice shy, so to speak. They won't be coming back.

    The novelty of forums in general has worn off, and there are far more of them than the ever were, combined with Facebook etc etc that means the distribution of hi-fi related posts is far wider than it ever has been. Therefore sites like this have taken a big hit.

    This isn't to discount many of the points made thus far.

    Would I buy another ML product? No. Why? I just don't think they are as good as I used to. 17 years worth of "used to'.

    I have also become convinced that custom built speakers can provide far better value for money. But that isn't surprising. No company overheads like staff and offices to pay for. No economies of scale, granted, but it is still cheaper.

  7. #37
    Super User Rich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by User211 View Post
    I think that associating lack of interest in this forum versus how well ML are doing is a fairly dodgy assertion to make.
    Fair point, Justin. But in my defense, I didn’t make the assertion. I simply asked the question. On the one hand, I think you are right that we can’t read too much into the traffic (or lack thereof) on this forum. But on the other, I have been surprised there hasn’t been a lot of discussion around the new models since they came out. Not to mention how few member’s systems sport the new models (I think I counted three total). Likewise, and to your broader point, I just don’t see a lot of discussion of or enthusiasm for Martin Logans on other audio forums either. Which makes me wonder if the brand isn’t somewhat in decline, at least among audiophiles purchasing high end speakers. I don’t have any answers here, but I do enjoy the discussion.

    Honestly, one of my reasons for posting this thread was to try to get some of the old timers who haven’t posted much lately back into an audio discussion. And look, I got you, Adam, Jonfo, Alan, Bernard, Tom, Gordon, Dave and others all to contribute your thoughts. So in that sense, this thread is a smashing success! All I can say is: Where’s Roberto?

    Oh, and I expect Jonfo will completely agree with your perspective on the custom-built speaker value proposition.

    Your point about not feeling the Logan’s are as good as you used to sticks with me. As I think about upgrading the Summits at some point over the next few years, I have this “grass is greener” feeling towards the Maggie’s, Soundlab, and Roger Sanders’ speakers, among others. (And no, I don’t mind the narrow sweet spot of the Sanders Sound speakers.) With the ML prices the way they currently are, I’m beginning to wonder whether they truly offer anything over the less expensive competitive options. Of course, Brad has a good point about discounts. If I could get the 15a for about $12k, it would be a tougher choice.

    As for Ethan, Mark, I think he makes great acoustic treatments, though he values them highly. But I consider him to be one of many highly opinionated so-called audio experts. I’m sure his book contains some good info. I’m just not sure I could stomach reading it given the self-important egotistical way he generally comes across. But I could be wrong on that.
    Rich

    This comment is intended solely for educational purposes and should not be construed as conveying any express or implied warranty of fitness for any other purpose. Said comment constitutes merely the humble opinion of its maker and does not reflect the views of the MLOC or of ML, Ltd. YMMV. Trust your own ears.

  8. #38
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    Rich I'll post back in a day or two. Slumming it at the Grand MeliŠ Red Level Tenerife at the mo. Here's some food for thought until then...

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich View Post
    As for Ethan, Mark, I think he makes great acoustic treatments, though he values them highly. But I consider him to be one of many highly opinionated so-called audio experts. I’m sure his book contains some good info. I’m just not sure I could stomach reading it given the self-important egotistical way he generally comes across. But I could be wrong on that.
    All I know from my conversations with him is that the book is doing well and there is a 2nd edition that is currently "out of stock". Look for yourself.

    https://www.amazon.com/Audio-Expert-...dp/0415788846/

    I suspect that if I didn't agree with him, it would have a pronounced impact on how I felt about how he was saying what he is saying. I found the book pretty straight forward with detailed explanations and frequently the science behind them.
    Mark
    JRiver Media Server 21 on Windows 10 -> (Async USB) -> OPPO 105D -> Emotiva XPA-2 gen 2 -> Martin Logan Ethos -> my ears

  10. #40
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    Can't speak for others, but I can speak for myself.

    ML was one of those first loves for me. I bought into the hive when I was young... can't believe that was like 13 years ago when I was in college. First with the Montage then the Mosaic then the Vantage then the Summit.

    Then a move to a loft in Chicago ruined the stat sound for me, and I sold my Summits to Tom.

    Then a hiatus from all audio, then I returned and was about to buy one of the new pair of speakers, but the best non-clx speaker was the Summit X. I wanted something a little different than what I had previously so I went with another brand.

    Fast forward 3 years, and here we are.

    I still have a penchant for ML as I always had... and am planning on making a move for a pair of ESL11A within the next 12 months for one of the other rooms.

    So, for me, the ML brand is alive and well.

    As for the forum, I don't like to participate as much if I'm not sporting an ML speaker.
    Joey "kid with grey hair" V
    System 1: Emm Labs TSDX Transport -> Emm Labs DAC2x -> Cary SLP-05 Pre -> Boulder 2060 Stereo Amp -> B&W 802D3, AQ WEL Power Cords, AQ WEL Speaker Wire, AQ Wind (reterminating to XLR)
    System 2: Rotel RA1592 Integrated -> Sonus Faber Olympica 3
    System 3: Rotel RC1570 Preamp -> Rotel RB1582 Stereo Amp -> B&W CM10s2 (ESL11a replacement??)

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich View Post
    Fair point, Justin. But in my defense, I didn’t make the assertion. I simply asked the question. On the one hand, I think you are right that we can’t read too much into the traffic (or lack thereof) on this forum. But on the other, I have been surprised there hasn’t been a lot of discussion around the new models since they came out. Not to mention how few member’s systems sport the new models (I think I counted three total). Likewise, and to your broader point, I just don’t see a lot of discussion of or enthusiasm for Martin Logans on other audio forums either. Which makes me wonder if the brand isn’t somewhat in decline, at least among audiophiles purchasing high end speakers. I don’t have any answers here, but I do enjoy the discussion.

    Honestly, one of my reasons for posting this thread was to try to get some of the old timers who haven’t posted much lately back into an audio discussion. And look, I got you, Adam, Jonfo, Alan, Bernard, Tom, Gordon, Dave and others all to contribute your thoughts. So in that sense, this thread is a smashing success! All I can say is: Where’s Roberto?

    Oh, and I expect Jonfo will completely agree with your perspective on the custom-built speaker value proposition.

    Your point about not feeling the Logan’s are as good as you used to sticks with me. As I think about upgrading the Summits at some point over the next few years, I have this “grass is greener” feeling towards the Maggie’s, Soundlab, and Roger Sanders’ speakers, among others. (And no, I don’t mind the narrow sweet spot of the Sanders Sound speakers.) With the ML prices the way they currently are, I’m beginning to wonder whether they truly offer anything over the less expensive competitive options. Of course, Brad has a good point about discounts. If I could get the 15a for about $12k, it would be a tougher choice.

    As for Ethan, Mark, I think he makes great acoustic treatments, though he values them highly. But I consider him to be one of many highly opinionated so-called audio experts. I’m sure his book contains some good info. I’m just not sure I could stomach reading it given the self-important egotistical way he generally comes across. But I could be wrong on that.
    Hola Rick, I am here, reading you. As always, super fan of the ML sound. I have being changing my electronics, and falling in love each day to my CLXs. This is the best sound system that I ever had...

    Regarding the new models, I do believe that they are a step forward than the previous models. As an example, starting with the Impression, they come with two power amplifiers of 275 watts each, driving the two woofers array on each speaker cabinet. The quality of the bass is stunning. A something that you must have take a listen to them. They are that good!. The stat panel comes one inch wider than the Montis, and what I listen is more delicate sound overall. It has more dynamics, and wider stage, and incredible sense of 3D. The model has better definition at the bass notes than the Montis...I am very happy with the newer models.

    I am not posting too much...you are right. This is, because others are doing it. If I can help in a decision, I love to provide my findings. Service from ML still is one of the best. Service is the most important link in the saleīs chain.

    Due to my poor English, sometimes for me is hard to explain or express the right manner, my findings.

    Rick, you are a truly robust pillar in this forum. Your opinion is very valuate. Thanks for thinking of me!
    A big hug to all of you, wishing the best for this new 2018!
    Roberto.
    CLX, Stage X and Motion 4, BF-210 sub, Summits in second system. Conrad Johnson Classic One Twenty SE amp, ET-7 Conrad Johnson pre, Exasound E-32 DAC with Teddy Pardo linear power supply, Shun Mook products, Nordost and DHLabs cables. Anthem AVM-60 audio and video processor. Anthem MCA-325 center and surround power amp. BPT Signature 3.5 Plus Balanced Line Power Conditioner.

  12. #42
    Forum Administrator twich54's Avatar
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    Roberto, Here's hoping 2018 is superb for you as well ! and I will echo your sentiment on the new series again. If I had not just purchased my Revel's there would be a pair of 13a's in my listening room !
    Dave

    System #79 - Analog is Alive and Well, if in doubt, click the link below !

    Click Here to see my System

  13. #43
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    There’s Roberto! Hola, amigo. Glad to hear you are well. I saw you posting on the Conrad Johnson forum about a certain ET-7 preamp. I presume you are enjoying it. Thanks for contributing to this thread.
    Rich

    This comment is intended solely for educational purposes and should not be construed as conveying any express or implied warranty of fitness for any other purpose. Said comment constitutes merely the humble opinion of its maker and does not reflect the views of the MLOC or of ML, Ltd. YMMV. Trust your own ears.

  14. #44
    Member GW1800's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich View Post
    Iím curious about this. Iíve been a member of this forum for over ten years now. When I started, it seemed like there was so much interest in and enthusiasm for this brand. And this forum was filled with discussions about the speakers, the brand, and hifi in general. Nowadays, it doesnít seem the same. There doesnít seem to be all that much discussion of MLís current products, particularly the high end ones, as there used to be. As has been noted in another thread, all of the forum moderators and many of the long term members donít even own Logans anymore. Few memberís systems sport the newest high end Loganís. And there doesnít seem to be a plethora of new members joining after purchasing the higher end ESL speakers. It seems like we discuss politics much more than electrostatic speakerís these days.

    So is this a function of the declining brand appeal of ML, or just a natural decline in the popularity of this forum? I was struck by these thoughts recently reading the PS Audio forums and noting the amount of participation they have and the amount of daily discussions about their current products. I think that is partially facilitated by the participation in those forums by PS Audio employees, especially by the founder Paul McGowan and one of his lead engineers. It seems like a long time since anyone at ML participated in this forum.

    Years ago, when ML made some major changes, fired some longtime employees, merged with Paradigm, moved production to Canada, made some questionable CEO hires, and moved into lower tier home theater and architectural type products, while jacking up the prices of their high end ESLís, I was concerned that they were diluting their brand and would run it into the ground. I wonder if we are not now witnessing the effects of all that. I wonder whether they have priced themselves out of their traditional market for high end ESL speakers and canít compete with the likes of Soundlab, Magnepan, and so many other ďnon-traditionalĒ speaker companies.

    My Summits are working just fine for me now, but if I were to replace them in the current time frame, I expect I would lean towards Soundlab over MLís current offerings. For equivalent money, I think I would get a much better speaker. I would also consider Roger Sandersí speakers, and a few others. The ML brand just doesnít seem to hold the cachť that it once did, especially for the prices they now charge.

    I mean, the Ren. 15a is basically the modern equivalent to the old Prodigy, but at 2.5 times the cost of the Prodigy a mere 12 years ago. Thatís a pretty big price jump in a short amount of time. Especially considering you can get the Maggie 20.7ís or the Soundlab Majestic 545 for under $14 grand. Or Sanders 10e for $17 grand. All of which are arguably as good or better than the 15a at $25 grand. Weíve had a decade of low inflation, and the move to Canada was supposed to have cut costs of production. Yet MLís pricing has more than doubled for an equivalent level of speaker, while Magnepan, Soundlab, and others really havenít risen that much.

    Iím curious what everyoneís thoughts are on all of this.
    I came into the ML world around 2012 so I know I missed a lot of the past. I do however agree with many of your points.


    1. This forum seems to have like 10 people participating in and a lot of the time its politics. Earlier on there seemed to be a lot more enthusiasm for the brand which showed up as many more posts. There seems to be little interest in the newer products its a lot about older models mostly. I can't remember the last post on the Neolith or CLX. Even the new lower models seem to have little interest. Seems like everybody is looking for bargains maybe not so much the best sound.

    2. I posted to have a picture of the CLX in black wood up close got zero pictures.

    3. I've posted about CLX weights got zero interest.

    4. Like you said several of the older members do not even have ML speakers. They are like 2-3 of the 10 people that participate on the forum how sad.

    5. Myself I have some real good connections with many of my brands at the company level but not so much with ML. Reps and sales people yes but at corporate not so much. I do remember early on being the Kansas area and was excited to stop in but when I called I was told there was nothing there to see. You would think they would have some demo room but no. When I visited Canada a couple of years ago same thing not one ML in any of the demo rooms. They had samples but nothing working. I think part of it is there is no real person at the company that is passionate as a owner would be. When I visited I had a great tour but the person knew really nothing about ML and seemed real happy with that - how sad. Even where they are located on the company floor they are kind of jammed in a very small area. I've tried numerous times to make a connection with customer service etc. but no one seems in the least interested.

    6. As far as comparing the new and old. I have only one personal experience. Summit X Vs 13's. The 13's are so much better in every aspect. I do think the absorption into Anthem/Paradigm has been beneficial particularly the sound correction part.

    7. It would be nice if the company would follow this forum a little more also. I think in the past I have seen a few make comments but its been quite awhile.

    8. As far as the pricing being out of line I guess I came after the big switch in pricing. I do agree if you look at the product there are a lot less working parts compared to many other speakers. I think the cost is extremely low. About 1/2 the cost is just in the finishing which they do extremely well but the rest is not all that complicated.

    9. Part of the forum lack of interest I think is generational. My son has a pair of 13's yet I think he has posted once and does not regularly participate. I think the younger crowd is just not that into forums.

    10. Other speakers - I was real exited to list to MBL X-Treme speakers at Axpona a couple of years ago. They just looked cool and cost so much they must be great right. Well I sat 3' from the sweet spot and was not impressed actually not at all. To me the speaker that may pull me away at some future time is Tidal speakers.
    Music Rm #503: CLX Art DC / 2-212's / Bricasti M12/28's / Aurender N10 / Nordost: O2 Loom / V2 Pwr Spk & Subs, QX4, QV2, QK1, QB8, Sort Fut, Lift & TC Kones, QKore 6, Earth Grd, Acoustical Panels Media Rm #504: 13A's Balsalt Blk /Descent i's / Vanquish / Focus / Parasound 3-A23 & 31 / 65" LG 4k OLED / Anthem AVM60 / Nordost V2/T2/H2 Pwr & IC, H2 HDMI & Net, QK1, QV2, QB8 & QX2 / Entreq SM / SBooster / Sony 4K Blu-ray

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by twich54 View Post
    Roberto, Here's hoping 2018 is superb for you as well ! and I will echo your sentiment on the new series again. If I had not just purchased my Revel's there would be a pair of 13a's in my listening room !
    Hola Dave,

    I am totally in love with the new line. I truly believe that the new models are a step forward. There are many little details that are covered. The stat panels are getting bigger, even with the new smaller holes, making the diaphragm to be exposed to the air about 40% more than the older stat panel. This makes to have better extension, better dynamics, and more efficient, needing less power to drive them, so you can choose a lot of smaller power amps out there, capables to drive the panel easy.

    Try to take a serious listening and tell us what do you think. Still, the diaphragm weights less than the air that it moves...this is important, because the replica of the signal applied is granted!
    Please receive a big hug from Costa Rica!
    Roberto.
    CLX, Stage X and Motion 4, BF-210 sub, Summits in second system. Conrad Johnson Classic One Twenty SE amp, ET-7 Conrad Johnson pre, Exasound E-32 DAC with Teddy Pardo linear power supply, Shun Mook products, Nordost and DHLabs cables. Anthem AVM-60 audio and video processor. Anthem MCA-325 center and surround power amp. BPT Signature 3.5 Plus Balanced Line Power Conditioner.

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