Is the Martin Logan brand declining?

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Fair point, Justin. But in my defense, I didn’t make the assertion. I simply asked the question. On the one hand, I think you are right that we can’t read too much into the traffic (or lack thereof) on this forum. But on the other, I have been surprised there hasn’t been a lot of discussion around the new models since they came out. Not to mention how few member’s systems sport the new models (I think I counted three total). Likewise, and to your broader point, I just don’t see a lot of discussion of or enthusiasm for Martin Logans on other audio forums either. Which makes me wonder if the brand isn’t somewhat in decline, at least among audiophiles purchasing high end speakers. I don’t have any answers here, but I do enjoy the discussion.

Honestly, one of my reasons for posting this thread was to try to get some of the old timers who haven’t posted much lately back into an audio discussion. And look, I got you, Adam, Jonfo, Alan, Bernard, Tom, Gordon, Dave and others all to contribute your thoughts. So in that sense, this thread is a smashing success! All I can say is: Where’s Roberto?

Oh, and I expect Jonfo will completely agree with your perspective on the custom-built speaker value proposition.

Your point about not feeling the Logan’s are as good as you used to sticks with me. As I think about upgrading the Summits at some point over the next few years, I have this “grass is greener” feeling towards the Maggie’s, Soundlab, and Roger Sanders’ speakers, among others. (And no, I don’t mind the narrow sweet spot of the Sanders Sound speakers.) With the ML prices the way they currently are, I’m beginning to wonder whether they truly offer anything over the less expensive competitive options. Of course, Brad has a good point about discounts. If I could get the 15a for about $12k, it would be a tougher choice.

As for Ethan, Mark, I think he makes great acoustic treatments, though he values them highly. But I consider him to be one of many highly opinionated so-called audio experts. I’m sure his book contains some good info. I’m just not sure I could stomach reading it given the self-important egotistical way he generally comes across. But I could be wrong on that.

Hola Rick, I am here, reading you. As always, super fan of the ML sound. I have being changing my electronics, and falling in love each day to my CLXs. This is the best sound system that I ever had...

Regarding the new models, I do believe that they are a step forward than the previous models. As an example, starting with the Impression, they come with two power amplifiers of 275 watts each, driving the two woofers array on each speaker cabinet. The quality of the bass is stunning. A something that you must have take a listen to them. They are that good!. The stat panel comes one inch wider than the Montis, and what I listen is more delicate sound overall. It has more dynamics, and wider stage, and incredible sense of 3D. The model has better definition at the bass notes than the Montis...I am very happy with the newer models.

I am not posting too much...you are right. This is, because others are doing it. If I can help in a decision, I love to provide my findings. Service from ML still is one of the best. Service is the most important link in the sale´s chain.

Due to my poor English, sometimes for me is hard to explain or express the right manner, my findings.

Rick, you are a truly robust pillar in this forum. Your opinion is very valuate. Thanks for thinking of me!
A big hug to all of you, wishing the best for this new 2018!
Roberto.
 
Roberto, Here's hoping 2018 is superb for you as well ! and I will echo your sentiment on the new series again. If I had not just purchased my Revel's there would be a pair of 13a's in my listening room !
 
There’s Roberto! Hola, amigo. Glad to hear you are well. I saw you posting on the Conrad Johnson forum about a certain ET-7 preamp. I presume you are enjoying it. Thanks for contributing to this thread.
 
I’m curious about this. I’ve been a member of this forum for over ten years now. When I started, it seemed like there was so much interest in and enthusiasm for this brand. And this forum was filled with discussions about the speakers, the brand, and hifi in general. Nowadays, it doesn’t seem the same. There doesn’t seem to be all that much discussion of ML’s current products, particularly the high end ones, as there used to be. As has been noted in another thread, all of the forum moderators and many of the long term members don’t even own Logans anymore. Few member’s systems sport the newest high end Logan’s. And there doesn’t seem to be a plethora of new members joining after purchasing the higher end ESL speakers. It seems like we discuss politics much more than electrostatic speaker’s these days.

So is this a function of the declining brand appeal of ML, or just a natural decline in the popularity of this forum? I was struck by these thoughts recently reading the PS Audio forums and noting the amount of participation they have and the amount of daily discussions about their current products. I think that is partially facilitated by the participation in those forums by PS Audio employees, especially by the founder Paul McGowan and one of his lead engineers. It seems like a long time since anyone at ML participated in this forum.

Years ago, when ML made some major changes, fired some longtime employees, merged with Paradigm, moved production to Canada, made some questionable CEO hires, and moved into lower tier home theater and architectural type products, while jacking up the prices of their high end ESL’s, I was concerned that they were diluting their brand and would run it into the ground. I wonder if we are not now witnessing the effects of all that. I wonder whether they have priced themselves out of their traditional market for high end ESL speakers and can’t compete with the likes of Soundlab, Magnepan, and so many other “non-traditional” speaker companies.

My Summits are working just fine for me now, but if I were to replace them in the current time frame, I expect I would lean towards Soundlab over ML’s current offerings. For equivalent money, I think I would get a much better speaker. I would also consider Roger Sanders’ speakers, and a few others. The ML brand just doesn’t seem to hold the caché that it once did, especially for the prices they now charge.

I mean, the Ren. 15a is basically the modern equivalent to the old Prodigy, but at 2.5 times the cost of the Prodigy a mere 12 years ago. That’s a pretty big price jump in a short amount of time. Especially considering you can get the Maggie 20.7’s or the Soundlab Majestic 545 for under $14 grand. Or Sanders 10e for $17 grand. All of which are arguably as good or better than the 15a at $25 grand. We’ve had a decade of low inflation, and the move to Canada was supposed to have cut costs of production. Yet ML’s pricing has more than doubled for an equivalent level of speaker, while Magnepan, Soundlab, and others really haven’t risen that much.

I’m curious what everyone’s thoughts are on all of this.

I came into the ML world around 2012 so I know I missed a lot of the past. I do however agree with many of your points.


1. This forum seems to have like 10 people participating in and a lot of the time its politics. Earlier on there seemed to be a lot more enthusiasm for the brand which showed up as many more posts. There seems to be little interest in the newer products its a lot about older models mostly. I can't remember the last post on the Neolith or CLX. Even the new lower models seem to have little interest. Seems like everybody is looking for bargains maybe not so much the best sound.

2. I posted to have a picture of the CLX in black wood up close got zero pictures.

3. I've posted about CLX weights got zero interest.

4. Like you said several of the older members do not even have ML speakers. They are like 2-3 of the 10 people that participate on the forum how sad.

5. Myself I have some real good connections with many of my brands at the company level but not so much with ML. Reps and sales people yes but at corporate not so much. I do remember early on being the Kansas area and was excited to stop in but when I called I was told there was nothing there to see. You would think they would have some demo room but no. When I visited Canada a couple of years ago same thing not one ML in any of the demo rooms. They had samples but nothing working. I think part of it is there is no real person at the company that is passionate as a owner would be. When I visited I had a great tour but the person knew really nothing about ML and seemed real happy with that - how sad. Even where they are located on the company floor they are kind of jammed in a very small area. I've tried numerous times to make a connection with customer service etc. but no one seems in the least interested.

6. As far as comparing the new and old. I have only one personal experience. Summit X Vs 13's. The 13's are so much better in every aspect. I do think the absorption into Anthem/Paradigm has been beneficial particularly the sound correction part.

7. It would be nice if the company would follow this forum a little more also. I think in the past I have seen a few make comments but its been quite awhile.

8. As far as the pricing being out of line I guess I came after the big switch in pricing. I do agree if you look at the product there are a lot less working parts compared to many other speakers. I think the cost is extremely low. About 1/2 the cost is just in the finishing which they do extremely well but the rest is not all that complicated.

9. Part of the forum lack of interest I think is generational. My son has a pair of 13's yet I think he has posted once and does not regularly participate. I think the younger crowd is just not that into forums.

10. Other speakers - I was real exited to list to MBL X-Treme speakers at Axpona a couple of years ago. They just looked cool and cost so much they must be great right. Well I sat 3' from the sweet spot and was not impressed actually not at all. To me the speaker that may pull me away at some future time is Tidal speakers.
 
Roberto, Here's hoping 2018 is superb for you as well ! and I will echo your sentiment on the new series again. If I had not just purchased my Revel's there would be a pair of 13a's in my listening room !

Hola Dave,

I am totally in love with the new line. I truly believe that the new models are a step forward. There are many little details that are covered. The stat panels are getting bigger, even with the new smaller holes, making the diaphragm to be exposed to the air about 40% more than the older stat panel. This makes to have better extension, better dynamics, and more efficient, needing less power to drive them, so you can choose a lot of smaller power amps out there, capables to drive the panel easy.

Try to take a serious listening and tell us what do you think. Still, the diaphragm weights less than the air that it moves...this is important, because the replica of the signal applied is granted!
Please receive a big hug from Costa Rica!
Roberto.
 
There’s Roberto! Hola, amigo. Glad to hear you are well. I saw you posting on the Conrad Johnson forum about a certain ET-7 preamp. I presume you are enjoying it. Thanks for contributing to this thread.

Hola Rich,

You are right! That is me at the Conrad Johnson site. I just got the new ET7 preamplifier and the Classic One Twenty SE power amp. All I can say is that it is totally different presentation of what I had previously. Of course I am in Heaven with these gear. The new DAC by Exasound with the linear power supply made by Teddy Pardo made a sinergy with the CLXs so nice and beautiful, that I am getting goosebumps and again, re-discovering my entire music. The music flows easy, with detail and tremendous dynamics. The bass is robust, but keeps the size of the bass in all strings...easy to tell the fingering at the guitar. The piano is marvellous. The clarinet and trumpet are projected with space and right timbre. The percussion is wonderfull. And now, the voices. I never had before these voices here. The female voice has an enchanted way, as an example Jacintha singing Georgia of my mind, that you should listen her singing this song as kind of reference. I have it in flash drive, and when I go to take a listen to a friends house or audiophile system, I use it as a reference...I am in love with my system and Martin Logan. ML delivers the sound very good, no matter the cost of the speakers.
Strings are silky, and you can feel where the bow is moving. The cello is another musical instrument that shows easy the ML sound. Listen to Johanna Rose playing the Viola Da gamba: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YvpU3UYtVmI
Rich do your best and take a listen to the newer models, and tell us your findings.
Kind regards from Costa Rica Rich!
Roberto
 
I like you guys I am hoping to get a chance to listen to the line up sometime this year. I'm just not sure where to go. I'll look around. I like to hear what's up.
 
I haven't owned ML's for quite a few years now. I continued participating in this site for a couple of years after I got the Wilson's, but now I prefer sites that aren't speaker specific. Besides, my memory for ML may not be relevant to current ML owners and what's the point if I don't have anything to contribute? The purpose of a site, to me, is sharing knowledge and feel no need to rehash it. I really like the new ML's, having heard most of them at RMAF, but it's like, been there, done that.

My system now is pretty damn nice and I am pretty darn happy with it. I typically post in various music threads, in Audio Aficionado, Audio Nirvana and Audio Shark, but rarely in their other threads. I rarely post at all in What's Best Forum, but read it from time to time, as there is a lot of experience there. I pop in here from time to time, but rarely post.
 
Ahhh, feels like a homecoming. I’m so glad I started this thread. Nice to see so many long-time members sharing their thoughts again. Good to hear from you Steve. Been a long time. I’ll let you know the next time I’m headed out to Austin.

Roberto, I promise you I will take a listen to the new models before I make any decisions about upgrading my Summits. I am envious of your system with the CLX’s. I know the CJ equipment drives the panels so sweetly.

I will say this about this forum though, guys. We are a diverse group of people with a similar interest in music and achieving wonderful sound through our hobby. It doesn’t matter that we don’t all agree on politics or on the whole objectivism vs. subjectivism debate. It doesn’t matter that we don’t all own ML’s anymore, or even that some of us may not have the enthusiasm for the brand that we once did. We can still have some great conversations about music, about any brand of speakers or other components or room treatment or the difference that audiophile fuses and window dots make, or even other hobbies that we enjoy. Ultimately, this place for me is like the bar in the t.v. show Cheers — a place where everybody knows your name (and your quirks, and the fact that you still haven’t posted your system...). But I digress. Let me just end with Merry Christmas and I love you all. Great group of people on this forum!
 
Hola Chicos...Rich is right! Love you all too! Merry Xmas, and the best for this coming soon 2018!

I wish to all a very happy listening!
 
5. Myself I have some real good connections with many of my brands at the company level but not so much with ML. Reps and sales people yes but at corporate not so much. I do remember early on being the Kansas area and was excited to stop in but when I called I was told there was nothing there to see. You would think they would have some demo room but no. When I visited Canada a couple of years ago same thing not one ML in any of the demo rooms. They had samples but nothing working. I think part of it is there is no real person at the company that is passionate as a owner would be. When I visited I had a great tour but the person knew really nothing about ML and seemed real happy with that - how sad. Even where they are located on the company floor they are kind of jammed in a very small area. I've tried numerous times to make a connection with customer service etc. but no one seems in the least interested.

To me, this quoted paragraph speaks volumes. This was my fear when ML changed from a small company of dedicated employees to a cog in a much larger corporate machine. It wasn’t always this way. When we had the first forum get together over ten years ago and toured the factory in Lawrence, Martin Logan was a very different company. When they merged with Paradigm, fired a bunch of longtime employees, and moved production to Canada, the writing was on the wall. Certainly we have gained some great advances in design, production, and technical advances. But we have lost that passion and customer-centric focus of a smaller company driven by a founder with vision. ML speakers are still great (if a lot more expensive) but the company is just not the same. Sad, but inevitable I suppose.

Regarding the comments about younger kids streaming music and not caring about quality, etc. ... I have to say ... as I write this, I am listening to a Jack Johnson album streaming wirelessly from Amazon Music on my IPad to a pair of Sennheiser HD1 Bluetooth on-ear headphones. And honestly, it sounds pretty d@mn good. I mean, really really good. I don’t have to worry about room interactions, fussy expensive equipment, and all those other things we obsess over. And I can listen to it anywhere I want. Did I mention it sounds really good? No it doesn’t give me the soundstage and imaging and goose-pimples of my main system, but it sounds just great for casual listening. Clear, detailed, good bass. Simple and effective. Yeah, I’m beginning to think audiophiles just may be a dying breed with the technological advances of modern life. The sound is excellent and the convenience is hard to beat.
 
To me, this quoted paragraph speaks volumes. This was my fear when ML changed from a small company of dedicated employees to a cog in a much larger corporate machine. It wasn’t always this way. When we had the first forum get together over ten years ago and toured the factory in Lawrence, Martin Logan was a very different company. When they merged with Paradigm, fired a bunch of longtime employees, and moved production to Canada, the writing was on the wall. Certainly we have gained some great advances in design, production, and technical advances. But we have lost that passion and customer-centric focus of a smaller company driven by a founder with vision. ML speakers are still great (if a lot more expensive) but the company is just not the same. Sad, but inevitable I suppose.

I agree this is "sad", but in today's world, I see it as a positive.

With technology, R&D, computerisation and advancements in high-end products today, you simply can't compete as a "one-man band". Companies need to share technology, parts, R&D, etc to be competitive in today's environment.

If they don't then they'll be leap-frogged by their competitors within no more than a year.

As audiophiles with a thriving industry, we are lucky to have choice. You can go and buy your rudimentary/low-tech speakers from Roger Sanders (a company which would no doubt end in all ways should anything happen to Roger in the future), or you can buy a high-tech "globalised" product from someone like ML.

You pay your money, you make your choice.
 
With technology, R&D, computerisation and advancements in high-end products today, you simply can't compete as a "one-man band". Companies need to share technology, parts, R&D, etc to be competitive in today's environment.

If they don't then they'll be leap-frogged by their competitors within no more than a year.

The continuing success of such companies as Soundlab, Magnepan, PS Audio, Sanders Sound, and many others completely belies this notion. You don’t have to be part of a multinational conglomerate to survive and even thrive in this industry. Oh, and most of these companies will still support every product they ever made, unlike Martin Logan. While I agree with the notion that if Roger dies, Sanders Sound will die with him. At the same time, I think it’s pretty clear that if the high end doesn’t remain profitable for ML, they will drop it in a heartbeat and end support for existing models. Either way, you take your chances.
 
I think it’s pretty clear that if the high end doesn’t remain profitable for ML, they will drop it in a heartbeat

I think that is the same for every company out there. Audio or anything else.

Profit is not a dirty word. Nobody is in business (audio or otherwise) for sh1ts and giggles.
 
One could even point at the recent acquisition of the Harman conglomerate by the even larger Samsung conglomerate as an example of audio industry vertical integration happening. Sometimes it is needed for R&D reasons, as things get increasingly computerized, but also likely for patent portfolios.

So having the ML brand as part of a larger group that can provide for synergies is a good thing. But I totally agree that they've pretty much lost the externally visible energy and passion of a founder. There are still some long-term, passionate employees there, but they are probably forced to live within their roles and not be 'splashy' and have lost some of their prior independence.
It's a shame, as a publicly visible 'face' and 'voice' for the brand would be nice. Much like Kevin Voecks is for Revel at Harman. Even post acquisition, he continues to be 'the guy'.

So ML, please think about that, and realize it's almost as much about external communications and market shaping as anything directly product related. But it can NOT be just a marketing role, that would be a huge mistake. It needs to be somebody clearly passionate about the products and how they are used.

The fact that this thread even exists is more than ample proof you need to do something, and soon. Why would a forum of dedicated owners and fans of your products even be discussing this topic?
 
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It's a shame, as a publicly visible 'face' and 'voice' for the brand would be nice.
...
So ML, please think about that, and realize it's almost as much about external communications and market shaping as anything directly product related. But it can NOT be just a marketing role, that would be a huge mistake. It needs to be somebody clearly passionate about the products and how they are used.

The fact that this thread even exists is more than ample proof you need to do something, and soon. Why would a forum of dedicated owners and fans of your products even be discussing this topic?

Great post, Jon. They already tried that once, putting their new marketing guy on here a few years ago, and it fell completely flat. He hasn’t been heard from since. Peter Soderburgh (sp?) also used to post and he is much more along the lines of what you are describing: a passionate, knowledgeable long-time employee. They certainly haven’t figured out how to leverage this forum to their advantage. They could take a lesson from Paul McGowan of PS Audio on that topic.

Adam, I agree that profit is not a dirty word, per se. But there is a clear difference in how small, founder-driven companies like Magnepan and Soundlab approach profit vs. how a large conglomerate does it. The former tends to be customer-centric, while the latter tends to focus on sales, marketing and the balance sheet.
 
Great post, Jon. They already tried that once, putting their new marketing guy on here a few years ago, and it fell completely flat. He hasn’t been heard from since. Peter Soderburgh (sp?) also used to post and he is much more along the lines of what you are describing: a passionate, knowledgeable long-time employee. They certainly haven’t figured out how to leverage this forum to their advantage. They could take a lesson from Paul McGowan of PS Audio on that topic. ...

Rich, that's true, and the key was 'new marketing guy', if it had been one of the old-timers, or even a recent hire, but with the right bona-fides as a long-term brand advocate and fan, then it would have been different. It's a mighty tough role to fill, I'll grant that.

Forum and other social media participation by a person (vs a corporate persona) would be very welcome and likely result in not only better feelings, but quantifiable sales.
 
Great post, Jon. They already tried that once, putting their new marketing guy on here a few years ago, and it fell completely flat. He hasn’t been heard from since. Peter Soderburgh (sp?) also used to post and he is much more along the lines of what you are describing: a passionate, knowledgeable long-time employee. They certainly haven’t figured out how to leverage this forum to their advantage. They could take a lesson from Paul McGowan of PS Audio on that topic.

Adam, I agree that profit is not a dirty word, per se. But there is a clear difference in how small, founder-driven companies like Magnepan and Soundlab approach profit vs. how a large conglomerate does it. The former tends to be customer-centric, while the latter tends to focus on sales, marketing and the balance sheet.

An interesting form of marketing if you think about it. Ps audio - that forum - and Paul and Teds involvement along with other engineers - it is awesome. Paul answers personal email !! Magnepan does literally zero marketing. They refuse to get into the online boards - and audio asylum is probably the best place to get info. One of the guys speaks to Wendell and responds back. They seem to choose a small but profitable business model and their 'fan boys' do a lot of preaching on Internet forums.

So with MLs refusal to come on in (and granted this forum was a bit hostile a couple years ago because of the perceived lack of product support) - I think they just ran away or figured this was not the right setting to have a discussion about their product. Wendell has done the same w Maggie. They have day jobs.

Now saying all of this - how does the word get out about your product with the distribution channels dropping left and right. It isn't easy finding a demo that's for sure. And that demo is supposed to be 'the sell'. It gets further complicated when your product needs good conditions to justify the cost. So what's left? Internet hype. This feeling of customer service. I think you guys are onto something.
 
Dennis Chern and I are not dead, We are not lacking in any passion and love what we do. Most of the principal engineers are all on board with some them being here for over 25 years. We maintained price points with radically updated products which have won universal praise in every review area out there and are financially strong and internally supported. 16 new products over a 18 month period in all categories(8 in ESL, High end) when we in the early days doing one or two new ones should demonstrate that we are committed and strong.
The reason we do not weight in as we take the stance that this is "YOUR" forum, not ours and even though sometimes charges are made that are unfounded, believe that all folks need a way to express themselves.
i just had to jump in though. See you at the shows, which if anyone checks, we have participated in more of them over the last year or two more than ever before.
No, i wont' get into a discussion as again, we want this to be your soapbox.
 
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