Bump stocks. Who will be

amey01 said:

That's the crux of it.

I can't say I'm a fan of the tough gun laws we have here in Australia, but the fact that we haven't had a mass shooting since 1997 and you have one almost every single day can't be denied. I really don't think our "mental health services" are that much better to be the full justification for statistics like that. The US is the only country in the world where it is this bad - they're losing less citizens in war-torn countries! And every time this comes up, I write the same thing - how much longer are you going to let this keep happening ?

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It's hard to argue against something that actually works.

Sadly the US doesn't like to learn from other countries' successes. We much prefer to make fun of other countries and pick them apart to discredit anything they do right. It's the american way!

RCHeliGuy said:

Sadly that is just par for the course and far more typical than not. We have had many warnings about other people who went on to kill a bunch of people. Either there are so many false warnings that the real ones get lost or our entire law enforcement is inept. You choose. In either case it's a moot point because human nature being what it is, this situation won't improve.

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100% wrong IMO with respect to the tragedy in Florida, there were more than enough red flags displayed to have diffused that one, law enforcement was inept.

twich54 said:

100% wrong IMO with respect to the tragedy in Florida, there were more than enough red flags displayed to have diffused that one, law enforcement was inept.

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There were multiple failure points here.

The kid had mental health issues and never should have been allowed to purchase a gun.
The authorities should have intervened before it was too late based on the leads given to them by concerned citizens.
The idiot on petrol proved to be completely useless.

The whole point is that we can not always predict when this type of thing will happen and even if we have warning signs, no body seems to know how to deal with them well.

The last point with the one armed guy at the school is a logistics nightmare. We have schools where I live that are spread way out and it takes minutes to get across the buildings. We also have lots of trailer building annexes. There is just no way that a single person could protect that area in most schools. By the time the gun is being fired it's too late. 30 seconds later there can be lots of dead people.

There is no way to protect the kids with more guns, so we need to phase out the 2nd Amendment and move on. Let's actually learn something from countries who have proven this works.

BTW guess where the Mexican drug cartels continues to get a steady supply of weapons? We need to nip this in the bud and stop it at the source.

Mark, why is it that you fail to admit that law enforcement totally blew this one ?? You are obviously anti-gun (to which you are entitled) but the FACT remains that we have laws, policies in place that that were not followed....understood ?

Oh, as for that inept 'security guard', I trust you're able to see through the BS and falsehoods with regard to that position and the pathetic school administration that put him there.

twich54 said:

100% wrong IMO with respect to the tragedy in Florida, there were more than enough red flags displayed to have diffused that one, law enforcement was inept.

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I don't know.

You can blame:

1. Law enforcement errors
2. That "red flags were missed"
3. Mental health services
4. That there are not enough armed teachers
5. That schools don't have enough armed security
6. etc.

.......but is the USA's law enforcement, scrutiny of lunatics, mental health services......etc lagging that much behind the rest of the world to cause such a marked difference in mass shootings?

Or could it be the gun laws there?

I'm sorry, but I don't see your mental health services lagging too far behind ours. I don't see your school security too far behind ours. I don't see armed teachers here.

But where I do see ar marked difference between the USA and here is in gun laws.

Adam, my replies have been specific to the most recent tragedy. I'm all for re-vamping the gun laws but ONLY if the candy assed judicial system will enforce what is handed to them. As for assault rifles, ban them. As for eliminating gun ownership in this country, never gonna happen so we had better come up with a 'workable' Plan B !

twich54 said:

Adam, my replies have been specific to the most recent tragedy. I'm all for re-vamping the gun laws but ONLY if the candy assed judicial system will enforce what is handed to them. As for assault rifles, ban them. As for eliminating gun ownership in this country, never gonna happen so we had better come up with a 'workable' Plan B !

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We won't see anything touching guns in the US for at least a generation. Eventually it will seem like the obvious thing to do, but that probably won't come for decades.

It makes me think about how humorous it is that Sci Fi films set way in the future always have actors smoking. It's totally unrealistic but Tobacco has money funding movies so they continue to have lots of smoking where it doesn't make any sense.

The reason I mention that is Hollywood is well known to be liberal, yet the money comes from our Tobacco Industry and they bend over backwards to get the money. Politics are even worse and the gun lobbies are very powerful and well funded. Politicians fear running against the NRA in a election, so NADA will happen.

twich54 said:

candy assed judicial system will enforce what is handed to them.

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Couldn't agree more. And for more reasons than gun control. Poor / absent justice affects us in so many ways.

As for eliminating gun ownership in this country, never gonna happen so we had better come up with a 'workable' Plan B !

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Gun ownership is not banned in this country either. Not even close. I think that could be classes as a "workable Plan B".

"Gun control" is not "gun elimination" - let's be clear on that.

Call me naive, but I find it mind blowing that absolutely every politician in the US seems to accept donations from the damned NRA. I liked it that Rubio was put on the spot at a rally recently about the very subject. His response was that of a true politician-say something that amounts to nothing.

The Second Amendment was meant for another time. That time has passed. Do away with the damned thing!

How many more innocents have to die before the rich swamp dwellers do anything? The sad thing is that even if the Democrats retake one or both houses at the mid-terms, nothing will change.

Sad but oh so true Bernard.

While we are all 'reactive' to the 'most' recent tragedy and changes must come about, we need to be truly 'proactive' as we go forward. I'm sure this will happen....sad.

Bernard said:

Call me naive, but I find it mind blowing that absolutely every politician in the US seems to accept donations from the damned NRA.

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Sadly it is much worse than that. They not only take the money, but they also know that the moment they make any anti-gun move that the NRA would target much larger resources than their donations to fight against them in the next election.

However time will pass and things will eventually change.

How does one "control" 350+ million guns, especially those that are in the possession of criminals who, aren't exactly worried about the illegality of them?

Without complete control (ie the removal of ALL guns or ALL criminals) why should a gun owner, who chooses to self-arm, be required to relinquish that capability of protection?

If bump stock sales are controlled those who want them badly enough will simply 3D print them I suspect.

Pneumonic said:

How does one "control" 350+ million guns, especially those that are in the possession of criminals who, aren't exactly worried about the illegality of them?

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You could just as well say there is no point making anything illegal if criminals aren't going to follow the law?

We could at least make criminals work a little harder for their guns. As it is the Mexican Cartels just have people buy a bunch of assault rifles legally.

The average distraught kid in high school or recently tossed out who happens to be 18 can just walk into a Walmart and buy a gun. Until recently Dicks Sporting Goods sold assault rifles as "modern hunting rifles". LOL! They are only for hunting if you don't care about the meat or hide since hyper-velocity bullets leave a crater for an exit hole and make a real mess of what's inside. Unfortunately they do the same thing for people because they were designed to efficiently kill people.

I terms of recalling guns. The VAST majority of guns are in the hands of a very small percentage of the country. Most people want nothing to do with gun ownership and as a percentage the number of people in this country that have guns has been steadily dropping.

Currently 25% of our population owns all the guns but 3% own half of all guns.

As one of the 75% in this country without a gun, making guns illegal is all upside to me.

Pneumonic said:

..

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There is so much wrong with this logic.

How does one "control" 350+ million guns

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Amnesty and destroy

Without complete control

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You don't aim for "complete control" - but when you reduce 350 million + guns to even maybe 250 million guns, you commensurately reduce the chances of one of those guns being used to murder 50 innocent school children.

criminals who, aren't exactly worried about the illegality of them?

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They may not “exactly be worried about the illegality”, however the police will eventually catch up with them. Here in Australia, we regularly hear about “illegal guns found and destroyed” when warrants are executed, or criminals are apprehended and the like.

That (the above) has got to be a better outcome than “leaving guns in the hands of said criminals because it is their constitutional damn right to have them”. Surely?

relinquish that capability of protection?

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How often does one “save their family” by the ownership of a gun? Be honest here, come on. Certainly a damn sight less than those who lose their family because of a gun.

It is more about relinquishing criminals’ capability to destroy you.

who want them badly enough will simply 3D print them I suspect.

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[my emphasis above] – That is exactly right. Only those who want them badly enough will 3D print them. That will be a lot less than a transient lunatic who wakes up on a whim and decides to pop off 50 school children.

Noone has said you will “eliminate gun violence”. But reducing should be a first priority – a mass shooting almost every single day is a statistic not to be proud of.

RCHeliGuy said:

As one of the 75% in this country without a gun, making guns illegal is all upside to me.

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I don’t think anyone wants to “make guns illegal”, just like no one will ever “eliminate gun violence”. If you could get from 300 mass shootings a year to 200 mass shootings (or maybe even 100 mass shootings) a year then it would be a nice start for you.

RCHeliGuy said:

The average distraught kid in high school or recently tossed out who happens to be 18 can just walk into a Walmart and buy a gun.

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no longer true, Walmart has increased the age to 21 for all gun / ammo sales

Until recently Dicks Sporting Goods sold assault rifles as "modern hunting rifles". LOL! They are only for hunting if you don't care about the meat or hide since hyper-velocity bullets leave a crater for an exit hole and make a real mess of what's inside. Unfortunately they do the same thing for people because they were designed to efficiently kill people.

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Mark, you need to be brought up to speed on a few things ..........

1) The CEO of Dick's has just announced they will NO LONGER be selling 'black guns' (assault style / AR-15, etc, weapons)
2) hyper velocity bullets as you call them are not limited to assault weapons.
3) the design of the bullet determines the amount of 'damage' inflicted, a full metal jacket doing the least, where as a polymer tipped bullet and non full jacketed bullets will in fact create a greater 'cavity' doing more damage. These types of bullets are typically the ones used for hunting. With respect to game hunting for food the intent is to provide a one shot kill, into the vitals thus protecting the consumable meat. Varmint hunters are usually not concerned with harvesting consumable meat. Granted these types of bullets will have the same outcome on humans and they are not limited to assault weapons.
4) the most common calibre used in AR15 style of guns is a 5.56 NATO (.223) and .308 both of which are capable of a variety of load configurations for both target and hunting applications in various types of guns.

As one of the 75% in this country without a gun, making guns illegal is all upside to me.

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well, since I'm in that 25% segment I obviously disagree and I am hopeful that we will finally start to make progress to gun reform through better back ground checks, eliminating certain types of firearms that are allowed in civilian hands (assault style weapons) and a judicial system that may some day get a 'spine' !

I saw the announcements by Walmart and Dicks which is welcome.

The REALLY surprising story was Trump asking for comprehensive background checks and taking guns away from people who look mentally unstable first and then vet them to see if they should get their guns back. He mentioned an assault rifle ban etc.. etc.. Basically a completely 180. Of course the GOP dug their heels in and said they were unmoved by any of this.

There is no telling if Trump is serious or not at this point or if he will reverse his stance again.

RCHeliGuy said:

I saw the announcements by Walmart and Dicks which is welcome.

The REALLY surprising story was Trump asking for comprehensive background checks and taking guns away from people who look mentally unstable first and then vet them to see if they should get their guns back. He mentioned an assault rifle ban etc.. etc.. Basically a completely 180. Of course the GOP dug their heels in and said they were unmoved by any of this.

There is no telling if Trump is serious or not at this point or if he will reverse his stance again.

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So right at this very moment - you support Trump? Is that what you said?? Lol. No need for a response. Haha.

I have some guns - left over from my dad and hunting/skeet shooting when I was younger. Grew up with them. Was taught about them. Etc. so I guess you could say I was 'pro gun'.

But to me there comes a time when you look at our society and culture and have to ask 'Can we handle the responsibility that goes with gun ownership?' I think the population has just gotten dumber and dumber over the years and I really don't think they can handle it.

My brother who is a quasi gun collector really feels the same. He had made mention to me - what about a 200 dollar fee and a 2 year wait for assault / concealed/ or silencers?? What the hell are we selling silencers for?? Anyway the 2 year wait gives the ATF the opportunity to check people and the funds to do it. Secondly, it gives anyone who has bad intentions serious pause if they have anything on their record.

But - in any case - if you are pro gun - go look at pictures of those kids killed recently. Tell me you don't want and need something done. Gun ownership needs to be treated way more seriously to keep people accountable since they obviously need help in this area. And yes, the good guys pay a price. If you feel bad about that - go look at the pictures.

timm, We actually seem to have some semblance of agreement on this subject.

I know that there are people out there who are responsible, but it seems lately that a significant enough number of people are not for a change to be needed. The greater good demands that we adapt to our current situation.

I see that Delta and the other airlines who have decided to end specials for NRA members, are going to take a hit at the pumps, courtesy of the state legislatures.

RCHeliGuy said:

As one of the 75% in this country without a gun, making guns illegal is all upside to me.

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Let me ask you this very simple question?

Why should people, who've decided they have no personal need to defend themselves, then decide, for others, whether or not they should or shouldn't be allowed to self-protect?