Upgrade of AC Power Cables

Pneumonic said:

piece of audio electronics whose performance distortion measurements are “inaudible”. This is quite the dilemma.

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Distortion is not the only parameter which affects performance. Herein lies the problem with measurement - sure you may be able to measure every aspect of performance, but it is far too complex to analyse how they all interact with each other to produce the final sound.

RCHeliGuy said:

There is no point hoping other people share your priorities. I would just be happy the music is easy to come by and very diverse.

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More listeners = more manufacturers = means competition = better product = lower pricing. The more the merrier AFAIAC.

amey01 said:

Distortion is not the only parameter which affects performance. Herein lies the problem with measurement - sure you may be able to measure every aspect of performance, but it is far too complex to analyse how they all interact with each other to produce the final sound.

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What do you mean by interacting with each other?

Distortion means any voltage error measured in terms of amplitude, frequency and phase. All are easily measured in signal analysis work in audio electronics.

Pneumonic said:

What do you mean by interacting with each other?

Distortion means any voltage error measured in terms of amplitude, frequency and phase. All are easily measured in signal analysis work in audio electronics.

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FOR EXAMPLE (one example of many): Measured under what load? 8 ohms? How does it perform at less than 1 ohm then? Is it the same? What if phase response is different at 1 ohm versus 8 ohms - but that amplifier is connected up to a pair of MLs which present exactly this sort of scenario accross the frequency spectrum?

I think the above scenario is well outside the bounds of what most measurements take into consideration. There are another 1,000 scenarios exactly like this. How do all these scenarios interact with each other?

twich54 said:

Wow ...........I assume you're not pulling my leg ? For if you are serious then please do some reading .........

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychoacoustics





while I will 'respect you in the morning' , I will (along with many if not most others) will not understand and or respect anyones opinion that does not comprehend the power of psychoacoustics.

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Dave,

My apologies. I wasn't paying attention.

I read the wikipedia link. The basic premise, if I understand it correctly, is that if one is biased to want to like a product, one is "more likely" to have a positive experience with that product.

I really wanted to like the Esoteric K01 and Dcs Pucinni with clock compact disc playback systems given new hi end tech, aesthetics, and a substantial financial cost to audition the unit. I initially thought that they would "bury" my outdated Cary CDP in sonic superiority. After four weeks auditioning the former and three weeks the latter, I returned them both.

Same is true for the VTL ST150 amp and IC cables from Audioquest and Kimber Cable. Auditioned all three products for two weeks plus. And yes, I was biased to "like them". I returned all of them.

All of these decisions were based only subjective analysis for each product.

If you don't want to understand and / or respect my opinions on audio, that's fine with me.

Gordon

Gordon,

Wow ......again......my point is, if one does not accept the 'fact' that psychoacoustics exists and that 'all' of us can be subject to it's powers then you are simply fooling yourself. I accept it, do I feel influenced at all times , of course not , but to poo-hoo it means one is clueless ......

amey01 said:

FOR EXAMPLE (one example of many): Measured under what load? 8 ohms? How does it perform at less than 1 ohm then? Is it the same? What if phase response is different at 1 ohm versus 8 ohms - but that amplifier is connected up to a pair of MLs which present exactly this sort of scenario accross the frequency spectrum?

I think the above scenario is well outside the bounds of what most measurements take into consideration. There are another 1,000 scenarios exactly like this. How do all these scenarios interact with each other?

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OK, thanks for the clarification. In any case, all these scenarios can be measured and the amplitude, frequency and phase errors noted.

twich54 said:

but to poo-hoo it means one is clueless ......

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I've given you examples of my personal experiences and why my observations on these specific items do not fit and are not consistent with "bias induced, I want to like it" psychoacoustics.

I also forgot mentionning the YG Kipod Signatures and the OPPO D105 which I also returned after an extended, subjective analysis.

I'm not saying that the phenomena doesn't exist.

If you think I am clueless, that's also fine with me.

Pneumonic said:

OK, thanks for the clarification. In any case, all these scenarios can be measured and the amplitude, frequency and phase errors noted.

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They can be measured. That wasn't my point. They can't be analysed to the extent required in order to determine impact on what we will hear.

I'm kind of sorry I started this thread. People seem to be getting angry. But I'm curious. I recently heard about Shakti Stones. Evidently they absorb stray electromagnetic radiation and thus improve soundstage and imaging.

And from the 6moons site this review about Shakti Stones!!!:

Shakti too paid for professional lab tests in the automotive arena where a performance car was equipped with On-Lines to shield the cars’ electronics from EMI. The results was a gain of horsepower – admittedly a mere 1 percent but with race cars that can be the difference between winning and losing.


Amazing.

rpokuls said:

I'm kind of sorry I started this thread. People seem to be getting angry. But I'm curious. I recently heard about Shakti Stones. Evidently they absorb stray electromagnetic radiation and thus improve soundstage and imaging.

And from the 6moons site this review about Shakti Stones!!!:

Shakti too paid for professional lab tests in the automotive arena where a performance car was equipped with On-Lines to shield the cars’ electronics from EMI. The results was a gain of horsepower – admittedly a mere 1 percent but with race cars that can be the difference between winning and losing.


Amazing.

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Cable discussions always end up heated, no matter what type of cable is being discussed. Lots of those here, going back many years.

With Shakti Stones you'll get more of the same; people who've heard them and think they improve things swear by them, whereas people who've not heard them say that they can't possibly make any difference, and that the first group is imagining things. The same is true for a whole slew of other tweaks, e.g. Shun Mook Mpingo disks, magic dots, vibration control cones, etc.

Bernard said:

Cable discussions always end up heated, no matter what type of cable is being discussed. Lots of those here, going back many years.

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The main issue is that people are emotionally vested. Once a person is emotionally vested they will only selectively listen. By that I mean they will only believe things that reinforce their beliefs. In nearly all cases a debate will only harden the participants opinions and they will feel even more certain about their original belief.

People change opinions on their own and not during debates unless they don't consider the issues settled and are actively trying to create an opinion.

The longer someone has been at something the stronger their biases and beliefs will be and the less likely they are to listen seriously to anything that disproves or contradicts their personal opinions.

Unfortunately psychoaccoustics is just one of the many issues we as humans have to deal with that make us incredibly irrational beings.

I've highly recommended this book before. It describes the human though process and how we fix our memory and adjust our opinions of things and people based on our actions and beliefs because the human mind likes to justify itself to be good and right. They use the terms "cognitive dissonance" and "self-justification".

https://www.amazon.com/Mistakes-Were-Made-But-Not/dp/1491514132

RCHeliGuy said:

The longer someone has been at something the stronger their biases and beliefs will be and the less likely they are to listen seriously to anything that disproves or contradicts their personal opinions.]

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I agree completely. It is particularly true of a lot of engineering minds.....the engineering texts are explicit, so there can be no difference, so they are not going to even listen, even if it costs nothing to do so! That is a closed mind. I like to keep an open mind when I listen.

So Mark, please do me a favour and go to your nearest high end dealer and compare a length of Radio Shack interconnect with a high end interconnect. If you hear no difference I will not respect you any less
But please, no instant switching; I've always wondered what those switch boxes contribute. Take your favourite CD, listen to a few tracks, then switch and listen. And don't listen with your head in a vise, concentrating on every note; relax and enjoy the music. If there is a difference you will hear it, whether you want to or not. I'm assuming, of course, that your hearing is not crap, deafened by those helos.

By the way, much is made of auditory memory being fleeting, but I've sometimes heard a new instrument in a familiar recording, then gone back to the old config and listened again. The instrument was not there, so my auditory memory was fine.

amey01 said:

They can be measured. That wasn't my point. They can't be analysed to the extent required in order to determine impact on what we will hear.

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So long as the measurement is taken, its level can be referenced against known limits of human hearing thresholds and its audibility ascertained. The only restriction being that the appropriate measure is performed.

RCHeliGuy said:

The main issue is that people are emotionally vested. Once a person is emotionally vested they will only selectively listen. By that I mean they will only believe things that reinforce their beliefs. In nearly all cases a debate will only harden the participants opinions and they will feel even more certain about their original belief.

People change opinions on their own and not during debates unless they don't consider the issues settled and are actively trying to create an opinion.

The longer someone has been at something the stronger their biases and beliefs will be and the less likely they are to listen seriously to anything that disproves or contradicts their personal opinions.

Unfortunately psychoaccoustics is just one of the many issues we as humans have to deal with that make us incredibly irrational beings.

I've highly recommended this book before. It describes the human though process and how we fix our memory and adjust our opinions of things and people based on our actions and beliefs because the human mind likes to justify itself to be good and right. They use the terms "cognitive dissonance" and "self-justification".

https://www.amazon.com/Mistakes-Were-Made-But-Not/dp/1491514132

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you nailed it Mark .............

Bernard said:

I agree completely. It is particularly true of a lot of engineering minds.....the engineering texts are explicit, so there can be no difference, so they are not going to even listen, even if it costs nothing to do so! That is a closed mind. I like to keep an open mind when I listen.

So Mark, please do me a favour and go to your nearest high end dealer and compare a length of Radio Shack interconnect with a high end interconnect. If you hear no difference I will not respect you any less
But please, no instant switching; I've always wondered what those switch boxes contribute. Take your favourite CD, listen to a few tracks, then switch and listen. And don't listen with your head in a vise, concentrating on every note; relax and enjoy the music. If there is a difference you will hear it, whether you want to or not. I'm assuming, of course, that your hearing is not crap, deafened by those helos.

By the way, much is made of auditory memory being fleeting, but I've sometimes heard a new instrument in a familiar recording, then gone back to the old config and listened again. The instrument was not there, so my auditory memory was fine.

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Bernard, another good post ! As for the 'open mind' that applies to the power of psychoacoustics as well.....right ?

Bernard said:

But please, no instant switching; I've always wondered what those switch boxes contribute.

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Switch boxes allow you the ability to remove all but 1 variable (the device under test) allowing the subjective test to become relevant by making it controlled and externally validated.

With a switch box you are able to:

- Remove psychological bias since you won't know in advance which device under test is being heard.

- Level match the components being compared so that your decision isn't impacted by having 1 component performing at a louder/softer level than the other.

- Mitigate time delay so that our echoic memory limitations are not surpassed.

it is only when you remove the above variables that the subjective test can be trusted.

twich54 said:

Bernard, another good post ! As for the 'open mind' that applies to the power of psychoacoustics as well.....right ?

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Of course, Dave.

Pneumonic said:

Switch boxes allow you the ability to remove all but 1 variable (the device under test) allowing the subjective test to become relevant by making it controlled and externally validated.

With a switch box you are able to:

- Remove psychological bias since you won't know in advance which device under test is being heard.

- Level match the components being compared so that your decision isn't impacted by having 1 component performing at a louder/softer level than the other.

- Mitigate time delay so that our echoic memory limitations are not surpassed.

it is only when you remove the above variables that the subjective test can be trusted.

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I understand the intent of the switch box. But it has a bunch of connectors, wires, switches etc; can you categorically state that they contribute NOTHING to the sound? That is what I am questioning.

In these discussions we tend to lose sight of the fact that this is all about the pleasure of music, not about things looking great on an oscilloscope, so if it SOUNDS better, it IS better, and hang the engineering analysis and psychoacoustic analysis....right Dave?

Bernard said:

I agree completely. It is particularly true of a lot of engineering minds.....

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Bernard, For the record I was not claiming that I had superhuman powers and was immune to the effects of having a human brain.

Knowing that this is how your brain normally operates can "help" you to be more mindful of your natural biases and try take it into account, but that is as far as it goes and as soon as you get just a bit riled up, that all goes out the window.

I have no incentive to swap cables or any other components to prove or disprove anything. There is no upside for me. If I found some component (any component) that sounded a bit better) and added it to my system, I would be at the same level of happiness. I'm not on a quest.

So as I said before I'm no long vested in this debate past the point of recognizing that the human brain is unreliable and interprets the world very differently based on all kinds of minutia. I'm not suggesting that my current stereo is perfect or the best, but just that it has passed the point at which I care about improvement.

More in line with your thoughts, I've already maximized the pleasure I can get from listening to music which is what this is all about. There is no additional gain to be had for me by changing my stereo in any way. It does everything I want it to and sounds great. Stretching the limits of what I consider great does nothing but cost me time and money.

I, like most people, try to spend my money where it makes me the happiest. I've maxed out my RC Heli purchases and own everything I could ever want there. Once again there was a limit that I reached and I'm completely satisfied. I'm currently acquiring new wood working tools this year at a pretty high burn rate that has already passed what I have in my stereo.

I know this is off topic, but I just completed this round walnut table for my front foyer and I really enjoyed that project and have a strong feeling of satisfaction from completing it. This is what is bringing me the most enjoyment right now, so this is where I'm spending my money I have a large floor standing Jointer on the way and will finally have 100A 220V service installed in my shop so I can get the large bandsaw I want for resawing wide veneers. Different strokes for different folks!