Soon to be a Summit X Owner – Probably

Hello all. I’m based in the UK and have moved home recently. I’ve joined this group for guidance and advice on my next speaker system.

After having KEF Reference 107, ATC 50 Active and other good speakers, I found that Avantgarde Uno horn speakers sounded astonishing in my London home. They had been chosen as Stereophile’s joint Speaker of the Year and rightly so. The feeling of being in the presence of musicians was far greater than with any previous speakers.

I’ve now moved and have a problem. I have an acoustically very difficult room and the Unos just don't sound as good here as in my earlier more conventional listening room. I'm thinking of ML Summit X speakers to replace the Unos as I want to restore the feeling of “being there” and I’m hoping they will do just that.

Here's the problem. The room is nearly 1000 sq ft with a low 7'8" ceiling and 30% carpeting over timber flooring. It's roughly semi-circular (actually more parabolic / pointed end of an egg shape) with almost the entire curved wall being floor-to-ceiling glass. The speakers are in the middle of the room, either side of a central column and facing to one side, so there's nothing behind them for 15 feet or so. I hope you're following this!

I don't want to fill the room with room treatment junk - it would spoil a very lovely room!

So the question is - are ML speakers likely to be happy in this room, or should I look for good conventional box speakers such as Revel Studio 2? Would Summit X be an ideal choice? I listen mainly to jazz, female voice, etc at robust but not normally window-shaking volume - occasionally orchestral music too.

I have a selection of good amplifiers to choose from –

> GamuT D200 Mk III – despite its brutish 200W power, the 102dB Unos love it

> Accuphase A-36 A class – very sophisticated, beautifully constructed and civilised

> Consonance Cyber 845 SET – A lot of oomph from a simple SET

> Red Wine Signature 30.2 LFP-V – sadly not compatible with my horn speakers

Source is normally FLAC files from NAS via NAD M22 streamer /preamp / DAC or Mark Levinson 390S CD player.

Thanks for any suggestions or encouragement.

First off.... Welcome to the fold !

As for your dilemma, wow, interesting room for sure. The low ceiling ht should not be a problem for the Logans and the wall / window curvature may not be an issue depending on drapes, etc. Can you post a picture or two for us to see ?

As for the Summit X's performance , I think it will come down to room layout, good Lord knows you'll have no problem with allowing lots of room behind them ! Also given the room volume perhaps a sub or two might also be helpful.

FWIW I have the Revel Studio 2's and am more than pleased, but my room is only 360 sq ft !

twich54 said:

First off.... Welcome to the fold !

As for your dilemma, wow, interesting room for sure. The low ceiling ht should not be a problem for the Logans and the wall / window curvature may not be an issue depending on drapes, etc. Can you post a picture or two for us to see ?

As for the Summit X's performance , I think it will come down to room layout, good Lord knows you'll have no problem with allowing lots of room behind them ! Also given the room volume perhaps a sub or two might also be helpful.

FWIW I have the Revel Studio 2's and am more than pleased, but my room is only 360 sq ft !

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Thanks Dave.

My earlier London room was also about 350 sq ft with 10 ft ceiling height and 5 side walls plus a huge bay all carpeted, so very good for listening.

Good to learn that Summits don't need a back wall for best performance. I'd prefer not to introduce a sub, if only because I have downstairs neighbours although we have excellent soundproofing and bedrooms are well away from my living room. Excessive bass travels though everything though! My Unos have twin 10" driver subs each side, so I'd expect the Summits to have comparable bass performance despite their much smaller cabinet volume.

I'm not sure if this works but I'll try to add a photo and a rough room layout drawing.

http://www.martinloganowners.com/forum/images/attach/jpg.gif

http://www.martinloganowners.com/forum/images/attach/doc.gif

Note that the photo shows additional speakers and equipment that is not normally there.

Peter

If it is a flat with flats below don't buy Summits. Downward firing woofer not good for people below.

User211 said:

If it is a flat with flats below don't buy Summits. Downward firing woofer not good for people below.

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Bass is non-directional, so downward firing vs. front/back firing will make little difference. If thin floors, you could place the speakers on a solid isolation platform (as some have done), but neighbors would likely still hear the bass if you crank it up!

Hi I had problems with the downward firing woofers in London, as the sound was going to the neighbours below. Had to do a few things like get Auralex Gramma and below that have mats which are used under washing machines to keep vibrations from going below to the neighbors.

sleepysurf said:

Bass is non-directional, so downward firing vs. front/back firing will make little difference. If thin floors, you could place the speakers on a solid isolation platform (as some have done), but neighbors would likely still hear the bass if you crank it up!

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No it doesn't work quite like that. A high excursion woofer is that last thing you want firing directly into the floor of a flat below.

In flats the best you can hope for is high surface area low excursion bass. Because it doesn't penetrate walls and floors to anything like the same extent.

My bookshelf speakers sound much louder outside the house than my Apogees do for the same internal volume in DB matched by my sound meter. Again, high excursion but very low surface area drivers in the bookshelves.

CLX would be a much much better choice. Just don't ever try and use an ML sub in a flat scenario.

My Descent used to drive my wife insane elsewhere in a large house.

sleepysurf said:

Bass is non-directional, so downward firing vs. front/back firing will make little difference. If thin floors, you could place the speakers on a solid isolation platform (as some have done), but neighbors would likely still hear the bass if you crank it up!

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It's non-directional from a distance. It's very directional three inches from the face of the woofer. :ROFL:

Thanks for the comments about down-firing bass drivers.

Although I'd prefer not to use down-firing speakers, I don't think it would be a problem in my flat. The building is constructed to a very high modern standard and noise transfer between flats is insignificant. In fact the only sound I hear from neighbours is children running around upstairs and slamming of windows where the sound travels though the curtain walling system. I have never heard music, talking, TV, etc and as far as I'm aware no one has heard mine! I have Agantgarde subs that stand on the floor and these produce huge bass from twin 10" drivers - although they do face forward.

Hear Here said:

Thanks for the comments about down-firing bass drivers.

Although I'd prefer not to use down-firing speakers, I don't think it would be a problem in my flat. The building is constructed to a very high modern standard and noise transfer between flats is insignificant. In fact the only sound I hear from neighbours is children running around upstairs and slamming of windows where the sound travels though the curtain walling system. I have never heard music, talking, TV, etc and as far as I'm aware no one has heard mine! I have Agantgarde subs that stand on the floor and these produce huge bass from twin 10" drivers - although they do face forward.

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There is a big difference in transfer of sound to the structure of the building between front firing woofers vs. a down-firing woofer several inches from the floor. Your comment about children running is telling. The woofer is going to be slamming the floor with low frequency sound waves which are likely to transfer to the building structure much like the footfalls of small children. If you go this route, just be sure you do so with the understanding that it may very well present an issue. Sound travel and transference are difficult to predict and often present unforeseen issues. The newer ML speakers with front and rear firing woofers would probably be a better choice.

By the way, I love your flat and the UNOs are gorgeous! I would be tempted to work hard to optimize them in that space vs switching to another system. Electrostatic speakers have their own issues in a space like that.

Rich said:

By the way, I love your flat and the UNOs are gorgeous! I would be tempted to work hard to optimize them in that space vs switching to another system. Electrostatic speakers have their own issues in a space like that.

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Thanks. The view too is pretty wonderful - from 200 ft about ground level, the entire Solent, Isle of Wight and Portsmouth Harbour with all its shipping surround me. I've being doing more adjusting of my Unos with some distinct improvement in sound already. I'll still look at B&W 802D speakers as well as the Summits, but I appreciate your point about down-firing speakers. In fact it's only the physical impact from stamping feet that travels though the floors.

HH, welcome! I'm surprised no one mentioned you might like the sound with something behind them, as mentioned by Rich ,ELS's move the air in a much different way in a space like you have..*Jealous, btw*...How about some movable panels on castors? Nice thick MDF with some local artist work on each? Roll them back against that cube walled thing behind the telly when not listening?

This will give you the enviable option of fine tuning the back wave music info, play with that soundstage dude!!!!

I would also like to see if you can work out the sound issue with those magical horns you have...well worth the effort, you will have a bitch of a time dialing in Summits in that room, keep the Uno's!!

stuwee said:

HH, welcome! I'm surprised no one mentioned you might like the sound with something behind them, as mentioned by Rich ,ELS's move the air in a much different way in a space like you have..*Jealous, btw*...How about some movable panels on castors? Nice thick MDF with some local artist work on each? Roll them back against that cube walled thing behind the telly when not listening?

This will give you the enviable option of fine tuning the back wave music info, play with that soundstage dude!!!!

I would also like to see if you can work out the sound issue with those magical horns you have...well worth the effort, you will have a bitch of a time dialing in Summits in that room, keep the Uno's!!

Click to expand...

Thanks. I'm not keen on movable panels on casters. They'd have to be quite large and they'd only provide a useful support for the mid / upper frequencies - unless thay were made of brick! And there's nowhere I'd want to put them when not behind the speakers. The place you suggest is occupied by a fine serving table and that centre column is covered with mirror on both sides, plus one end. There's no available wall space either as most walls are glass and the straight wall is kitchen one side of the door into the room with storage cupboards (with mirror doors) the other side. You'll see that the somewhat excessive presence of mirrors allows the views over the Solent and harbour to be enjoyed from just about anywhere in the room, even if by reflection in mirrors!

It's interesting that you think electrostatics such as Summits will be a bitch to set up. I've been considering B&W 802D speakers - cone type in massive cabinets and costing megabucks new. I've been in communication with the tech guys at B&W (they are just down the coast from me) about the suitability of their flagship speakers in my room and they've (refreshingly frankly) offered the opinion that perhaps electrostatics may be ideal in my room. Because there's no back wall to support their speakers, they consider they'd not be performing at their very best. Despite this, I'm auditioning a used pair next week and may well buy them on the basis that the price is good and a resale if not ideal should leave me little out of pocket. I'm also be listening to Summits.

However I'm still working to get my AGs singing more tunefully!

Ok HH, thanks for clearing up the middle of the room constraints. You get to try these speakers in your home? Nice! I've never heard Summits with nothing behind them and a long distance to the side walls before, ever. I'd be interested in your thoughts. Have Fun!

I have mine 5' out into the room with a very solid wall behind them, and all the others I've heard were almost the same. I'd trust a B&W tech over my opinions btw.