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Thread: Wall behind speakers amount of reflexion

  1. #16
    Super User C.A.P's Avatar
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    firm believer in diffraction with shelves and objects.. Absorption seems counter productive to a bi polar design unless you have to have them flat to a wall.. The space between the wall and stator being 6 feet minimum IMHO, is what gives the open deep stage.. Corner traps help without the loos of stage
     
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    Forum Administrator twich54's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by C.A.P View Post
    The space between the wall and stator being 6 feet minimum IMHO, is what gives the open deep stage.. Corner traps help without the loos of stage
    I agree with Chris, no method of diffusion / absorption can make up for the space to 'breath' !
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    Quote Originally Posted by twich54 View Post
    I agree with Chris, no method of diffusion / absorption can make up for the space to 'breath' !
    Thank you again for your replies. Just to be more clear: it wasn't my intention to make up for too little space by using diffusors or absorbers. I can place the ML about two meters from the front wall even more if necessary.

    My initial question about the degree of reflection (empty wall, difusors, absorbers or a mix of them) was referring to the speakers having enough distance to the wall behind them.


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    Last edited by ltill; 01-06-2017 at 05:01 AM.

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    With that amount of distance, diffusion behind the panels is what you want. You will be rewarded with great imaging and a deep and wide soundstage.
    Rich

    This comment is intended solely for educational purposes and should not be construed as conveying any express or implied warranty of fitness for any other purpose. Said comment constitutes merely the humble opinion of its maker and does not reflect the views of the MLOC or of ML, Ltd. YMMV. Trust your own ears.

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    Junior Member guido's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich View Post
    With that amount of distance, diffusion behind the panels is what you want. You will be rewarded with great imaging and a deep and wide soundstage.
    +1! I have 5 feet between my SL3s and the wall behind them, and RPG Skyline diffusers on that wall. Works much better than any alternatives I tried. Excellent soundstage and imaging.
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  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by ltill View Post
    I am considering to switch from ordinary loudspeakers to dipole ones, and would need your help to clarify some questions on the matter.

    It is my understanding that a dipole speaker needs a specific amount of reflecion from the back wall behind the speaker.

    I am not sure if this back wall behind the dipole speaker should rather be absorbing or reflecting or a mix of the two?

    Does there exist a precise physical measure ( oder: dimension) that helps to determine the optimal degree of reflection?

    Currently the back wall behind my speakers consists of book shelves. Is it possible to find out if this book shelf is acting more as an absorber or more as a difusor? Some people say that bookshelfs act more as absorber some say that they act more as difusors. So I am kind of confused. Can someone please explain how this can be done?
    Not sure my suggestion will work for you with the book shelves but I will give it a try. Ideally like most have stated is to have at least 4' behind or more and 2' or more on each side. That is great in a perfect setting or dedicated room but in the real world that most of us live in we do not have all that space particularly all the room behind even if our spouses would allow. In my situation I have about 27" behind and initially had no treatments at all behind first the Summit X's and now my CLX's. As I upgraded my system I started to get interested in room treatments and grounding. Grounding is another whole new subject that I will leave for another time. However I did spend quite a bit of time trying to maximize the sound quality in this space. Shawn had a old panel laying around that he sent me to try as there is no such thing as a demo or return period on treatments that I'm aware of. I noticed right away that it improved my sound stage. In doing the research I came across RPG and they recommended a BAD ARC panel which is a abfuser - not sure I spelled that right but its a combination of a diffuser and absorber but in a arc form. I ordered 2 panels 2'x5' and put them directly behind the CLX's and some smaller ones for first reflections point that were flat. They have special sound gem material etc.to wrap them in that come in many colors and to me they made a very nice change to the plus side. I'm very happy that I got them. The last room treatment was some type of a bass trap but I did not want some ugly corner filler like normal and decided to go with a black box from SR instead. I heard a demo at last Axpona and actually bought two but one made a difference and the second one really did not for my room. Lastly I had my panels perfectly straight and parallel to my listening position. Recently I updated my amps which really helped the depth of my sound stage and width all by themselves. I then toed in the CLX's ever so slightly like 1 1/2" (not quite the 1/3 that they recommend) and was very pleasantly surprised in the added depth of sound stage and just a touch more treble. Lastly I will most likely be added some BAD ARC's behind the Summit X's in my media room system #504.
    Last edited by GW1800; 01-20-2017 at 11:51 AM.
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    I'm very interested in all of the information provided on this thread, as I am limited on how far I can move my ML Montis's out in to the room. The front plane of my speakers is 40" from the wall and that is very farthest I can get them away from the front wall (due to WAF and room geometry issues).

    I am quite happy with my sound stage, but I enjoy tinkering and constantly trying to improve the sound, so I am now going to experiment with treatment of the wall behind my speakers. I saw a comment one thread that appear to state that if I absorb some of the back reflection I will improve the clarity (since smearing will be reduced), but I could sacrifice sound stage. Is this the case - do improvements in clarity come at the expense of sound stage imaging, or can I improve both simultaneously?

    Thanks.
    Last edited by bikerneil; 01-22-2017 at 07:04 AM.

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    Give us more! Room size ! Speakers used!

    Further out in a room can actually excite bass as waves can have time to clear each other as the bass is slower than the other frequencies.. When done right you don't get the over powered corner reinforced one note bass

    In my room my Odyssey's are 8 feet out from back wall and have best bass response of all.. Along with that I get a HUGE stage and massive depth along with images well outside the speakers. its nothing to hear instruments 2 feet out from panels..

    Try out Crowded House Recurring Dream.. Track 9 and when speakers are set up right the cars will actually circle you and they will be BIHIND you!
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    Quote Originally Posted by C.A.P View Post
    Give us more! Room size ! Speakers used!
    My room is 13' wide X 15' deep.

    I have Martin Logan Montis, which are moved out in to the room as far as possible, with the front face of the speakers about 40" from the front wall.

    My main question is about the clarity vs. sound stage imaging - are they inversely related, or can you optimize both and improve both at the same time?

    Thanks!!

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  10. #25
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    lots of potential issues in that room IMHO! That bar table is really a issue with standing wave and image width.. The TV will cause reflections out of timing.. Id Toe them with a flash light too.. Its always hard making a room a listening room that is not really made for one.. Getting them past that bar would help clear up center image and covering the TV with a blanket will dull reflections as well as a slight toe
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  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by C.A.P View Post
    lots of potential issues in that room IMHO! That bar table is really a issue with standing wave and image width.. The TV will cause reflections out of timing.. Id Toe them with a flash light too.. Its always hard making a room a listening room that is not really made for one.. Getting them past that bar would help clear up center image and covering the TV with a blanket will dull reflections as well as a slight toe
    Believe me, if I had any idea a few years ago that I would get in to this music hobby I would do things differently in this room. At the time, the room was our formal living room (which never saw any use) and I convinced my wife to allow me to convert it in to my office and hobby room. I installed a custom made, built-in desk on one wall, and a work bench on the other wall , and I hung a big tv on the opposite wall. Fast forward a few years and now I have to work with what I have..... In the long term, I may end up making some big changes to the room like getting rid of the workbench, but for now I gotta work with what I have.

    It's hard to see from this picture, but the speakers are toed in. Also, I spent several hours measuring with a laser and flashlight to ensure the speakers have the same exact angle and are equidistant from my primary listening seat.

    My real question on this thread was - if I manage to install some sound absorbing panels and drapes behind the speakers it is my understanding that those changes would eliminate the back reflection and improve the sound CLARITY of my system. Will this improvement wreck the beautiful sound stage that I currently enjoy??

    Thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bikerneil View Post
    My real question on this thread was - if I manage to install some sound absorbing panels and drapes behind the speakers it is my understanding that those changes would eliminate the back reflection and improve the sound CLARITY of my system. Will this improvement wreck the beautiful sound stage that I currently enjoy??
    It is quite possible that it will reduce the size of the soundstage, but enhance imaging. Quality diffusers would maintain and even enhance the size of the sound stage while maintaining good clarity, assuming you can place the panels four to five feet out from them. If the panels have to be three feet or less from the back wall, absorption is a better option. Note that you would need a panel that absorbs midrange as well as high frequencies for best results.
    Rich

    This comment is intended solely for educational purposes and should not be construed as conveying any express or implied warranty of fitness for any other purpose. Said comment constitutes merely the humble opinion of its maker and does not reflect the views of the MLOC or of ML, Ltd. YMMV. Trust your own ears.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich View Post
    It is quite possible that it will reduce the size of the soundstage, but enhance imaging.
    Thanks Rich. I am trying to do as much studying and learning as I possibly can before I take any next steps. It's not possible for me to move my ML's out 4-5', so I will focus on absorption. I'm very happy with what I have today, so worse case I will try a few changes and go back to what I currently have.
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  14. #29
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    For absorption panels, I recommend one panel 2'x4'x4" behind each speaker panel. Something like GIK's 242 panels or RealTrap's Mondo Traps. Place them on a small stand or pedestal so they cover the full height of the speaker panel. Worst case scenario, if you don't like the sound with them behind the panels, you can always use them to tame side-wall reflections.

    At first, it will seem that the sound is less "lively" but give yourself time to adjust. You have to realize that your ears are hearing a lower volume level (as if you turned down the preamp volume) because the added sound from the rear wave is no longer hitting your ears. So you should be able to turn up the preamp volume beyond your normal listening levels to get back to the levels of sound you are used to listening to. You may also need to make minor adjustments to speaker positioning and toe-in to fine tune the sound. At this point, you should notice much improved clarity and imaging, two areas where electrostatic speakers shine. Putting some bass traps in the corners of your room would improve the sound tremendously as well.
    Rich

    This comment is intended solely for educational purposes and should not be construed as conveying any express or implied warranty of fitness for any other purpose. Said comment constitutes merely the humble opinion of its maker and does not reflect the views of the MLOC or of ML, Ltd. YMMV. Trust your own ears.

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    Thanks Rich - that's the kind of information I was looking for. I will begin working on some treatments today. I wanted to make sure I was not going to lose my sound stage imaging. If I can improve both clarity and the imaging, it's worth a try.

    Thanks. I will report back after I make some changes.
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