Need more power.

Been following a while but haven't posted before. I just recently picked up a pair or MartinLogan Ethos as fronts as well as a Motif-X center channel. While they sound great, they do sound limited versus what I've heard them do and know they're capable of. I am currently using a Pioneer SC-91, and its limitations are becoming very apparent. I'm looking at first adding an amplifier to the mix and then later updating the processing side of things. This is where I'm torn and could use some guidance.

I'm looking mainly between the McIntosh MC205, Rotel RMB-1585 or Emotiva XPA Gen 3 (in 5 channel configuration). I'm also open to other options and have additionally considered just getting a stereo amp or three channel amp for the fronts at the moment. (My former fronts were B&W 600 series bookshelves which have been moved to the rear). I realize these are very different configurations, and while I like the idea of McIntosh my wallet may not. That said, I've found an open box and hope to wittle that down somewhat in cost.

Any advice is welcome.

Thank you!

The McIntosh MC205 is a nice amp. I use to have one powering my Martin Logan Vantage speakers. Maybe you can find a good used one. I cannot speak for other amps. I have only used Mac amps.

You should audition a 5 or 7 channel Sunfire and bi-amp the "current" output for the electrostatic panels and the "voltage" output for the woofer.

ElectroNoob said:

You should audition a 5 or 7 channel Sunfire and bi-amp the "current" output for the electrostatic panels and the "voltage" output for the woofer.

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The woofers have built in powered amps on the Ethos, so that wouldn't be needed.

At $4000 price point I very highly recommend the Sanders ESL Mark 2 power amplifier.

At $2500 price point I recommend Parasound A 21 power amplifier. Weight 60 pounds.

A less powerful option at $ 2000 price point is Anthem MCA 225. Max output both channels driven 370 watts RMS at 2 ohms. Weighs 40 pounds. I have this amp and so far satisfied with amplifier performance.

If I am not wrong all three amplifiers are class AB not class A. Class A amps sound far better but are also far more expensive. A taken good care of used pure Class A amp by Krell or Pass purchase may be a good idea. For myself I do not recommend second hand goods purchase. Even though my 28 year old CLS that still functions okay today was purchased second hand.

Conclusion:
If you can afford the Sanders amp you will obtain years of pleasure listening to music. I do not recommend Rotel or Emotiva Gen 3 amps unless necessary due to funds restriction. I have not heard any amplifier by Rotel or Emotiva.

Wyred4sound have a year end sale. Try to listen to amp first and then make decision to buy.

Before starting with suggestions, we'll need a few more pieces of information from you...

1. How is this system going to be used?
2. What percentage of music vs. home-theater? If you have to make a choice/compromise with regards to feature or sound-quality, which will you pick?
3. Stereo vs. multi-channel for music and/or movies? How critical are you with each one?
4. How loud do you normally listen to your system?
5. For movies, what are you looking for from this system?
6. Same question for music, what are you looking for?

While they sound great, they do sound limited versus what I've heard them do and know they're capable of.

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What is it that you found lacking in your system vs. what you've heard of the same speakers?

I am currently using a Pioneer SC-91, and its limitations are becoming very apparent.

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While I tend to agree that you're identifying the limitations on the Pioneer, you should evaluate and address the system as a whole rather than patching up. By this, I mean that it could be a temporary patch to get an amplifier and make your system sound more powerful. But then, you'll quickly realize that you're just amplifying the signal from the Pioneer's pre-amp section and that could be the limiting factor. So, before embarking on the specifics, let's figure out what is it we're trying to solve short-term, and planning for the long-term goal. This way, (hopefully) you're working to build a system in an informed manner rather than going the cycles of equipment replacement through trial-and-error.
In my case, I first started out with full-blown front channels of Logans and matching Classe' amplifiers. That was VERY FUN, but then I found out that music, specifically stereo, was much more important to me than home-theater and my focus shifted. I ended up replacing the home-theater duties with a Yamaha soundbar, and evolved the Logans for stereo music only. The Cinema center channel and the Primare amplifier have been collecting dust for a while now...

Good luck with your system

Spike said:

Before starting with suggestions, we'll need a few more pieces of information from you...

1. How is this system going to be used?
2. What percentage of music vs. home-theater? If you have to make a choice/compromise with regards to feature or sound-quality, which will you pick?
3. Stereo vs. multi-channel for music and/or movies? How critical are you with each one?
4. How loud do you normally listen to your system?
5. For movies, what are you looking for from this system?
6. Same question for music, what are you looking for?

What is it that you found lacking in your system vs. what you've heard of the same speakers?


While I tend to agree that you're identifying the limitations on the Pioneer, you should evaluate and address the system as a whole rather than patching up. By this, I mean that it could be a temporary patch to get an amplifier and make your system sound more powerful. But then, you'll quickly realize that you're just amplifying the signal from the Pioneer's pre-amp section and that could be the limiting factor. So, before embarking on the specifics, let's figure out what is it we're trying to solve short-term, and planning for the long-term goal. This way, (hopefully) you're working to build a system in an informed manner rather than going the cycles of equipment replacement through trial-and-error.
In my case, I first started out with full-blown front channels of Logans and matching Classe' amplifiers. That was VERY FUN, but then I found out that music, specifically stereo, was much more important to me than home-theater and my focus shifted. I ended up replacing the home-theater duties with a Yamaha soundbar, and evolved the Logans for stereo music only. The Cinema center channel and the Primare amplifier have been collecting dust for a while now...

Good luck with your system

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[*]How is this system going to be used? Mix of home theater and music.
[*]What percentage of music vs. home-theater? If you have to make a choice/compromise with regards to feature or sound-quality, which will you pick? SQ before features, though I expect a min viable feature set. I don't really need Atmos or DTS-X since I dont have the space or plans for height or additional channels. I don't see going beyond 5.1 in the foreseeable future. I would say that its 60% movies and 40% music.
[*]Stereo vs. multi-channel for music and/or movies? How critical are you with each one? Stereo for music, unless its SACD or DVD-A thats mixed for multi-channel. Multichannel for movies.
[*]How loud do you normally listen to your system? moderate to loud.
[*]For movies, what are you looking for from this system? Detail and impact. Want to feel like I'm there.
[*]Same question for music, what are you looking for? Detail, clarity and fantastic imaging.

If it wasn't stated, using the Pioneer as the pre-amp is not the end goal. I just don't want to spend for amp and pre at the same time. Though with the Emotiva route (versus McIntosh) I would be able to afford both. Maybe even the Rotel route if I can work a deal. The plan is amp now, and then upgrade the pre later. My roommate already wants to buy the Pioneer so I have an exit strategy for that one as well. I've tried the sound bar route for movies in the past. It simply didn't cut it and wound up getting returned.

In terms of what I find lacking is the imagine and range. Its just not there versus what I know those speakers are capable of. Some of them may be my room and the setup, but I'm somewhat limited in that regard on positioning. With that said, I'm fairly confident that the amp section just isn't cutting it.

Given that you're using the B&W 600 speakers for surround, I am assuming that you're not looking to be a perfectionist, requiring all channels to match. In this specific case, will a good receiver handling the processing and powering the center/surround channels + good stereo amplifier powering the front left/right be sufficient for you? What is your budget?

Spike said:

Given that you're using the B&W 600 speakers for surround, I am assuming that you're not looking to be a perfectionist, requiring all channels to match. In this specific case, will a good receiver handling the processing and powering the center/surround channels + good stereo amplifier powering the front left/right be sufficient for you? What is your budget?

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Not yet, but maybe probably eventually. The reality is I was going in to buy the 600 series towers as my fronts (and already had the 600 series center). I found a deal on the Ethos that I couldn't pass up and I had wanted a pair of ML ESLs for a long time. Immediately I noticed the center to be an issue so I replaced that as well with the Motif-X. Given my roommate ended up buying my center channel and got 600 series towers, its likely not a far stretch for me to assume he will be interested in the rears if I find something suitable. With that said, they're not a priority as this time.

I've weighed going Stereo or 3-channel amp and running the rears or rears and center off the Pioneer for the time being as well.

As far as budget, its flexible to an extent but I'd prefer to keep it under $5-6K. I found a decent deal on the McIntosh MC205, which I consider top of budget, but an investment as I can see myself keeping an amplifier like that or trading up within the brand for many years. I don't know that I feel the same way about the Rotel or Emotiva long term. If that makes sense.

In addition to the excellent amps already mentioned by M15 above, a quick peek at A'gon showed these which caught my eyes...
1. Krell FPB-300cx -- $2500.
2. Mark Levinson 331 -- $2150
3. Classe' S700 -- $1350
4. ModWright KWA-100SE -- $3200
5. Sanders Sound MagTech -- $2900

There are a number of McIntosh and others to choose as well. I can personally vouch for the musicality of the Levinson 331 since it's the same model I have currently. ModWright makes excellent stuff and I have his preamp right now.

Good Luck,
Spike

havok2022 said:

Not yet, but maybe probably eventually. The reality is I was going in to buy the 600 series towers as my fronts (and already had the 600 series center). I found a deal on the Ethos that I couldn't pass up and I had wanted a pair of ML ESLs for a long time. Immediately I noticed the center to be an issue so I replaced that as well with the Motif-X. Given my roommate ended up buying my center channel and got 600 series towers, its likely not a far stretch for me to assume he will be interested in the rears if I find something suitable. With that said, they're not a priority as this time.

I've weighed going Stereo or 3-channel amp and running the rears or rears and center off the Pioneer for the time being as well.

As far as budget, its flexible to an extent but I'd prefer to keep it under $5-6K. I found a decent deal on the McIntosh MC205, which I consider top of budget, but an investment as I can see myself keeping an amplifier like that or trading up within the brand for many years. I don't know that I feel the same way about the Rotel or Emotiva long term. If that makes sense.

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I had a similar realization with my most recent media room upgrade. I had a Pioneer SC-05 and when I went with better power and processor it made a great difference. Consider a Parasound A31 and the Anthem AV60 processor. You can have both nicely within your price range. You could also get the latest Marantz but a receiver is a receiver the amps within are never as good as a dedicated amp - convenient and compact yes. I can't say enough how well the Anthem has worked out and I really love how good the equalization is. I have two ML 212's and always have marveled at the graphs that the software produced - before and after. The AV60 does the exact same except for all the speakers including your surrounds plus gives you ATMOS. Yes Pioneer has equalization but for me it worked but not right I always had to hand tweak the setting. A lot depends on where you are going. Obviously the McIntosh will be your best component are you planning on eventually upgrading all the rest for probably many additional thousands of $$'s or just upgrade the amp and processor which will help a lot and be satisfied? To me the McIntosh is like a race horse that in your present system has one leg tied behind its back and unless you reinvest and upgrade you have wasted your money.

GW1800 said:

I had a similar realization with my most recent media room upgrade. I had a Pioneer SC-05 and when I went with better power and processor it made a great difference. Consider a Parasound A31 and the Anthem AV60 processor. You can have both nicely within your price range. You could also get the latest Marantz but a receiver is a receiver the amps within are never as good as a dedicated amp - convenient and compact yes. I can't say enough how well the Anthem has worked out and I really love how good the equalization is. I have two ML 212's and always have marveled at the graphs that the software produced - before and after. The AV60 does the exact same except for all the speakers including your surrounds plus gives you ATMOS. Yes Pioneer has equalization but for me it worked but not right I always had to hand tweak the setting. A lot depends on where you are going. Obviously the McIntosh will be your best component are you planning on eventually upgrading all the rest for probably many additional thousands of $$'s or just upgrade the amp and processor which will help a lot and be satisfied? To me the McIntosh is like a race horse that in your present system has one leg tied behind its back and unless you reinvest and upgrade you have wasted your money.

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Anthem and Parasound were also two companies I was looking at (and about to go audition). As far as Marantz, I consider it an overpriced Denon (especially since several models are literally the same) and all three Denons I've ever owned had issues. I consider that brand to have poor QC and scratched them off the list long ago. Going to check out the Anthem and Parasound stuff.

Well, what is done is done. I went with the Anthem AVM60, Parasound A31 and they threw in a Parasound ZoneMaster 250 for the rears as well as a Paradigm PW 800 wireless speaker as part of Anthem's promo. I should take delivery tomorrow. Now I need to dig up some interconnects.

havok2022 said:

Well, what is done is done. I went with the Anthem AVM60, Parasound A31 and they threw in a Parasound ZoneMaster 250 for the rears as well as a Paradigm PW 800 wireless speaker as part of Anthem's promo. I should take delivery tomorrow. Now I need to dig up some interconnects.

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Nice going you are going to love the much better sound. As far as you interconnects there are a lot of choices but would recommend XLR at least for the front three channels. Also would recommend a Entreq box for grounding unless you have a earth ground. Cheers let's us know your impression once you get it up and running.

I see the DTS x is now available I'm going to have to download and give this a try. I like Dolby for movies but like DTS for music or concerts with my old system. Can't wait to try the new version of DTS.