The new Renaissance & Expression design

Hi,
I am wondering what you think of the new design. As far I can understand, the Expression ELSs are replacements to Summit X and Montis.

My impression is that the design is more "retro" than the current/past Summit X and Montis. In spite of the fact that they probably sound better, these are loudspeakers that I would buy for my music-room - but not for my living room. IMHO I would not consider to replace my living-room Montis due to the design and WAF - but maybe this is just me? Any opinions? - or maybe the design is just unusual and we all will get used to it?

Honestly, the design isn't that different from the speakers they are replacing. The panel is more vertical (but most of us tilted the Summits to achieve a vertical angle anyway) and the woofer box is more rectangular. That's about it. Am I missing something? Doesn't look that much different to me.

I cant say I am a fan of the cabinet shape yet... However the concept behind what they are trying to accomplish would outweigh that for me.

At first glance, the differences are not revolutionary. However, Summit x and Montis have a more harmonious and elegant appearance. The finish of the cabinet with the mix of aluminium and wood is a better looking design IMHO - as well as the curved front from bottom to top. Furthermore, the size of the cabinet and the panel are in much more harmony. This is not important for a room build for music - but for a living room with other furniture the MLs are not longer as good looking as Sonus Faber or other glossy speakers out there. This is obviously not important sound wise - probably they sound better. But - I would probably consider other speakers in the living room if I was to choose between the new ML or another speaker (given they sound superb as a ML of course .

Being next to them, in person, the only thing that would be a consideration is seeing either speaker from the side, in my opinion.

From the front the panel size is what it is. You know the visual impact it will have on the listening space. The base cabinet is not really seen much from the front. From the side it is much larger. I'm not sure it will have that much WAF difference as long as the panel size is understood.

I'm out of town. I sent Sleepy Surf (Alan) a picture of me between both speakers at Da Vinci. If Alan can post it here It will give you another prespective on the size. Unfortunately I didn't take pics from the side.

Here's Brad's pic next to the Renaissance and Expression.



I, too, think the new designs have a slightly lower WAF, mainly due to the deeper and boxier looking cabinets plus their decision NOT to use matching perforated metal grill for front woofer. Hopefully the sonic improvements will make us overlook those concerns. I was also hoping ML would offer additional finish upgrades (other custom wood veneers or colors) but that's apparently not possible at this time (per private email with ML). My Summits are Bubinga, and none of the other finish options are good choices for our family room.

Redux said:

Hi,
I am wondering what you think of the new design. As far I can understand, the Expression ELSs are replacements to Summit X and Montis.

In spite of the fact that they probably sound better, these are loudspeakers that I would buy for my music-room - but not for my living room.

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I absolutely agree. My speakers are in the den and "I" wouldn't want to look at 13A's in that same space. Sorry but it's true. Nevermind 15A's which would be completely overwhelming in that space. I think the Montis and Summit X's are much more stylish looking for any living space.

For a dedicated sound room all bets are off. Anything goes. Personally, I'm just not dedicated enough to devote a whole room to music. This is fun, but not that high a priority in my life.

However I did just finish upgrading my HT room and I went so far as to hand build some custom furniture for it. I really like it, but I like listening to music in the den.

I thought the same until I saw them in person. After I had some real time with them, I think that they look better than my summits.

I'm likely to keep the gear I've got for at least a decade which makes me the worst type of arm chair quarterback expressing my opinions about something that I have absolutely no stake in.

I think from the perspective of Martin Logan sound producing ability comes first and then second quality \ durability and third visual design.

They would not consider a comparatively unattractive design unless it had true sonic merit.

The changes they incorporated mostly function to improve the quality of the sound.

I like the new design because is a pleasant change from the former design.

However ML should be concerned that as time passes by and “newness” factor dissipates will then customers still appreciate their new design.

ML just may offer other wood and metal finishes later to improve the design and keep the customer satisfied.

The above is only my subjective opinion. Feel free to disagree.

M15 said:

I think from the perspective of Martin Logan sound producing ability comes first and then second quality \ durability and third visual design.

They would not consider a comparatively unattractive design unless it had true sonic merit.

The changes they incorporated mostly function to improve the quality of the sound.

I like the new design because is a pleasant change from the former design.

However ML should be concerned that as time passes by and “newness” factor dissipates will then customers still appreciate their new design.

ML just may offer other wood and metal finishes later to improve the design and keep the customer satisfied.

The above is only my subjective opinion. Feel free to disagree.

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I agree a bit - but also disagree IMHO - everything about ML is about visual design (exception: the very top models). There are (far?) better ESL in the market - but they are huge and ugly - and very unpractical. For instance, Soundlab is a superior brand - but they are far to large for a living room. The hybrid-design of Martin Logan makes ESL speakers possible for "normal" people with normal living rooms. My Quads where not very popular - but the Montis are very appreciated by my family. I hope ML continue to pursue good design and WAF - and IMHO this new generation is probably a step in the wrong direction look-wise.

ML made it possible to have the very best technology for stereo (ESL) possible in a living room. For this - I am very grateful. Anything else of the same size is not even close compared to their products.

The funny thing about this thread is that when Martin Logan first introduced the Summit, Vantage, and Vista, a lot of ML fans were turned off by the angular design and didn't care for the look. Compare the new speakers to the Summit/Vantage and they really look very similar. Compare them to the Prodigy/Odyssey and they look very, very different. Any change from what you are used to looks weird, but after a few weeks they would seem quite normal. I just don't see it as an issue.

Rich said:

The funny thing about this thread is that when Martin Logan first introduced the Summit, Vantage, and Vista, a lot of ML fans were turned off by the angular design and didn't care for the look. Compare the new speakers to the Summit/Vantage and they really look very similar. Compare them to the Prodigy/Odyssey and they look very, very different. Any change from what you are used to looks weird, but after a few weeks they would seem quite normal. I just don't see it as an issue.

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Well, you are probably right - and i am probably the weird here. I didn't care for ML before I experienced the Montis - as a Quad ESL 63 owner the ML where for a long time not as good sound-wise - but when I wanted to upgrade, the Montis where both better in sound and looks. I dont like like the Vantage looks- nor the new looks - the Summit X and Montis is the best design so far IMHO - look wise.

Redux said:

Well, you are probably right - and i am probably the weird here. I didn't care for ML before I experienced the Montis - as a Quad ESL 63 owner the ML where for a long time not as good sound-wise - but when I wanted to upgrade, the Montis where both better in sound and looks. I dont like like the Vantage looks- nor the new looks - the Summit X and Montis is the best design so far IMHO - look wise.

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I agree with you 100%. It is hard to believe that ML could not come up with a more reasonable/nicer looking design than this series in 2016. IMHO, Summit X and Montis are the best looking speakers and the new series are the worse looking speakers on ML website.

Rich said:

Honestly, the design isn't that different from the speakers they are replacing. The panel is more vertical (but most of us tilted the Summits to achieve a vertical angle anyway) and the woofer box is more rectangular. That's about it. Am I missing something? Doesn't look that much different to me.

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There was a nice centered arch and an angle on the top surface. I've been pleased to see that my cats don't climb up there. However with a long flat horizontal surface a cat owner may as well just put cat pillows up there because the cats will hang out on it just like mine do on my sub-woofer. Two of my cats regularly perch on my sub-woofer while it's on. They like glossy surfaces like my piano too.

I love that mark. Hilarious. I can tell who the boss is!!

Ha. I could care less what they look like really. I like the big 'un. . I see that big cabinet and I think smooth bass response - not punchy. I see that big panel and I think huge soundstage. If it isn't all about the sound - jeez I don't know. I can get something real pretty that sounds a lot worse for a whole lot less

timm said:

Ha. I could care less what they look like really. I like the big 'un. . I see that big cabinet and I think smooth bass response - not punchy. I see that big panel and I think huge soundstage. If it isn't all about the sound - jeez I don't know. I can get something real pretty that sounds a lot worse for a whole lot less

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You're missing the point. Nobody's complaining why they sound good. The question is why ML cannot make a speaker that looks decent (not great) and sound great at the same time.

A speaker that sounds good can look good too. You may not care about the look, but for those who use the speaker in their living room the look may be an important factor.

Well,it worked out for me. Now I can buy Summit X much cheaper and be very happy with it since it sounds good and at least looks much better than the new series.

timm said:

I love that mark. Hilarious. I can tell who the boss is!!

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Zephyr, our sleek, quiet, lightning fast black cat is not the alpha cat.

This relaxed looking fluff ball, is the boss.

The day I let my cats choose my components for me is the day I quit this hobby! Personally, I think the new models look fine for what they are and as I've already said I don't see them as that big of a departure from current models. I'm just bummed about the price hike. The Prodigy cost $10,000 when it was discontinued in 2005. The Renaissance, which is really just an upgraded version of the Prodigy, sells for $25,000 a mere 11 years later. That's some serious inflation! 150% over 11 years. Shoreview has certainly figured out how to monetize the ML brand.