Summit X & Renaissance 13a

So it appears that the 13a has a bigger panel than the Summit X ( 44"x13" vs. 44" x 11.3") and a bigger power amp for the driven woofer. Yet they currently are going for the same price. What gives?

Will the Summit X be dropped?

Unless there is something I'm missing, why would anyone go for the Summits at this point?

Although a newer design, I suspect the Expression is probably less complicated/expensive to manufacture (electronics all in bottom tray, no fancy panel on top of woofer cabinet, simpler leg/spike assembly, no perforated grill covering front woofer, etc), while maintaining same (or higher) profit margin. ML/Shoreview will hopefully grow their higher end market even faster by taking advantage of such economies of scale, while (presumably) delivering an even better sounding speaker. The Summit X will end up being nicely discounted until stock is depleted.

sleepysurf said:

Although a newer design, I suspect the Expression is probably less complicated/expensive to manufacture (electronics all in bottom tray, no fancy panel on top of woofer cabinet, simpler leg/spike assembly, no perforated grill covering front woofer, etc), while maintaining same (or higher) profit margin. ML/Shoreview will hopefully grow their higher end market even faster by taking advantage of such economies of scale, while (presumably) delivering an even better sounding speaker. The Summit X will end up being nicely discounted until stock is depleted.

Click to expand...

Also interesting that Expression has the same crossover frequency (300 Hz) as the Renaissance even though the Renaissance panel has a larger panel.

Also, the Summit X with a smaller panel than either the 13a and 15a had a lower crossover frequency (270 Hz vs. 300 Hz) which is the opposite of what
I thought would be the case.

Has anybody seen any reviews of the Renaissance yet?

^^^ Re: crossover frequencies

I'm not surprised that they kept it at 300Hz, as dipole cancellations really kill the output below that. And I'm pretty sure the new DSP-based woofer amp and low-pass active crossover compensate well. The drivers they selected should be clean well past the crossover region.

As a point of contrast, I crossover my Monolith panels at 315Hz these days (and I've even used as high as 370), and that monolith panel is huge (same size as the Neolith). Using a crossover below 300 does not result in better sound in my experience, you just lose the mid-bass.

This is something I'm really struggling with. I purchased the Summit X's this week and now I'm thinking I should return them and order the 11A's. As I type this, I have them running to get them broken in, but really not to happy about how they sound out of the box.

What's the exact issue with their sound? If only a week old, the woofers probably aren't even broken in yet.
What are you powering them with?
How do you have them positioned?
How large is your room?

BTW, the Summit X is being replaced by the Expression ESL 13A. The Impression 11A is the next model down.

TMR said:

This is something I'm really struggling with. I purchased the Summit X's this week and now I'm thinking I should return them and order the 11A's. As I type this, I have them running to get them broken in, but really not to happy about how they sound out of the box.

Click to expand...

They definitely will need some break in. Out of the box, they don't sound anything near their full potential.

sleepysurf said:

What's the exact issue with their sound? If only a week old, the woofers probably aren't even broken in yet.
What are you powering them with?
How do you have them positioned?
How large is your room?

BTW, the Summit X is being replaced by the Expression ESL 13A. The Impression 11A is the next model down.

Click to expand...

I purchased a demo set, so they had some time on them. Either way, I still left them locked in a room running a break in CD for 3 days. I set them up yesterday and noticed they are super directional. My room is small, but will be changing in the next few months. Currently they are powered by a Theta Dreadnaught 2 amp, Marantz 8802 prepro, plugged into a shunyata model 6 and all wired with Kimber Kable. I will listen some more this weekend and I want to try listening to them with an Arcam AVR750 just to see how it sounds.

So far, I can hear the cancelation of the speakers ( I know my room is small ) and I will continue to play with position. They sound good when played loud, but when I'm playing them at low volume, it doesn't sound good.

My concern is I can return these and purchase the 11a's and have a speaker that is not at end of life ( would be better when its time to sell them in a few years ) I compare the 11a's because that's what I can get for a little more than what I paid for the X's.

What is the size of your room and do you have any acoustical treatments?

What you are describing is not what I have heard from Summit X. If you can't get these to sound good in your room it is unlikely that either the 11A or 13A will sound good either.

Start by absorbing the back wave on the front wall.

JonFo said:

^^^ Re: crossover frequencies

I'm not surprised that they kept it at 300Hz, as dipole cancellations really kill the output below that. And I'm pretty sure the new DSP-based woofer amp and low-pass active crossover compensate well. The drivers they selected should be clean well past the crossover region.

As a point of contrast, I crossover my Monolith panels at 315Hz these days (and I've even used as high as 370), and that monolith panel is huge (same size as the Neolith). Using a crossover below 300 does not result in better sound in my experience, you just lose the mid-bass.

Click to expand...

The crossover point to the electrostatic panels is determined by panel size and the woofer system utilized in each design. For the Renaissance, Expression, and Impression (which utilize similar woofer systems) we found that playing the panels lower than 300Hz impacted the dynamics of the electrostatic transducer. We obtain the most effortless output from these panels when we limited their range to above 300Hz. As the stat panels in each model increase in surface area there is an improvement in bandwidth, sound staging, and the overall effortlessness of the sound.

The 300Hz limit is imposed not only by the crossover, but also by the spacing of the spars in the panel itself. At 300Hz we can space the spars closer together than we would if the panel needed to play lower. Closer spar spacing improves control of the diaphragm and provides a more consistent performance overall.