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Thread: The DON / redux

  1. #961
    Super User Rich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by timm View Post
    My paycheck in feb is going to have quite a bit more in it. And I look at the brackets and can't see how many people could lose on this.
    Quite a bit more? Hardly, unless you’re already in a top bracket. According to an analysis of the law by the Urban-Brookings tax policy center:

    Next year, the average federal tax cut would be $1,610, the study found. The bottom fifth of income-earners would get an average cut of $60 and those in the middle fifth would get a $930 cut on average, according to the analysis. The top 1 percent would get $51,140 on average, and the top 0.1 percent would get $193,380.

    In 2025, the average tax cut would fall to $1,570 on average. Those in the bottom fifth would get a cut of $70 and those in the middle fifth would get a cut of $910, according to the study. The top 1 percent would get $61,090 apiece and the top 0.1 percent would get $252,300.
    Looks pretty slanted toward the ultra-wealthy to me, despite what Trump says about it favoring the middle class.
     
    Rich

    This comment is intended solely for educational purposes and should not be construed as conveying any express or implied warranty of fitness for any other purpose. Said comment constitutes merely the humble opinion of its maker and does not reflect the views of the MLOC or of ML, Ltd. YMMV. Trust your own ears.

  2. #962
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brad225 View Post
    When the vote had been taken and the senators and representatives were talking about what had happened and then going to sign the bill I channel hopped to see what was being covered. Fox was the only channel that was covering it live. every other station had other programing on.
    Ah, there’s your problem Brad. Personally, I don’t watch TV “news.” I consider it poorly produced opinion and entertainment. I get my news by reading, and from a large variety of sources. That way I control what information I am getting and I can much more efficiently find the news that interests me and weed through the crap. Watching TV is just being passively fed sensationalist crap from talking heads more interested in ratings than product. In my personal opinion.
    Rich

    This comment is intended solely for educational purposes and should not be construed as conveying any express or implied warranty of fitness for any other purpose. Said comment constitutes merely the humble opinion of its maker and does not reflect the views of the MLOC or of ML, Ltd. YMMV. Trust your own ears.

  3. #963
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon Gray View Post
    Hi timm,

    45 does have his strengths.

    On a more serious note, have a wonderful holiday.

    Best,

    Gordon
    Hahahaha. Nice. And u r right about the term limits.

  4. #964
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    Rich. I consider 6k take home quite a bit more.

    So let's get real - based on the stats u stated average is 1600. And then a range between 900 and 50k. So there is a huge gap there which I and many others will fall in. I make 'above average' pay so it makes sense that if that is the case I would get a larger monetary cut since I pay more to begin with.

    The analogy I would use is if I were getting s 10% discount on a car and I had a Ford Focus - I'd get about a 2k discount. A nicely equipped Tesla? I'd get about a 10k discount. You can't fight the math. You pay 90 for the Tesla - and 18 for the focus. more you pay - bigger the discount. A focus owner shouldn't expect a 10k discount because the Tesla owner is getting it.
    Last edited by timm; 12-22-2017 at 03:32 PM.

  5. #965
    Super User Rich's Avatar
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    Timm, are you talking $6k take home per year or per month? Because you said your February check would have quite a bit more. If you’re talking $6k per year, then the Feb check would have $500 more. Which doesn’t sound like “quite a bit more” to me, but then it’s all relative. If you are talking an extra $6k per month, then I would agree with you that is quite a bit more.

    Believe me, I understand the math. The people who have and earn the most get the most benefit; those who have and earn the least get very little benefit. The middle class gets some crumbs, and bankers, hedge fund millionaires, real estate moguls like Trump, and the like, make out like bandits. Especially with the repeal of the estate tax. Meanwhile, the deficit skyrockets, education suffers, and programs designed to help the poor and elderly will be cut.
    Rich

    This comment is intended solely for educational purposes and should not be construed as conveying any express or implied warranty of fitness for any other purpose. Said comment constitutes merely the humble opinion of its maker and does not reflect the views of the MLOC or of ML, Ltd. YMMV. Trust your own ears.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich View Post
    Timm, are you talking $6k take home per year or per month? Because you said your February check would have quite a bit more. If youíre talking $6k per year, then the Feb check would have $500 more. Which doesnít sound like ďquite a bit moreĒ to me, but then itís all relative. If you are talking an extra $6k per month, then I would agree with you that is quite a bit more.

    Believe me, I understand the math. The people who have and earn the most get the most benefit; those who have and earn the least get very little benefit. The middle class gets some crumbs, and bankers, hedge fund millionaires, real estate moguls like Trump, and the like, make out like bandits. Especially with the repeal of the estate tax. Meanwhile, the deficit skyrockets, education suffers, and programs designed to help the poor and elderly will be cut.
    Haha. No 500/mo. 6k per year. I don't have Gordon money!!

  7. #967
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    Oh. And I completely disagree with the estate tax as well. Government doesn't deserve 50% of someone's estate. They earned it. They worked for it. It's theirs and the families. Why not let the gestapo come in and just clear out houses. It's legal stealing as far as I'm concerned.

    Re 'not much'. Look. I am working class. The average pay bump in most corporations is 2% per year. The gov is looking to give me a 3-4% per year pay raise. So it is relative. If I made 500k - well 6k wouldn't buy the toilet paper needed for my 10 bathrooms. But I will guarantee you - 500/month is a big deal for a lot of people.

  8. #968
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    Regarding the estate tax, I understand your arguments. I also understand the idea of trying to prevent the formation of a permanent class of “nobility” in this country. As you say, they earned it. But they can’t take it with them, and their heirs didn’t earn it in any sense of the word. Yet they will have the money, and the power and political influence that goes with it, for generations moving forward, without having to work for it. That’s not a great basis for a democracy.

    Ultimately, if we want to live in a great country, with a strong military, excellent infrastructure, top-notch education, etc. etc., someone has to pay for all that. Seems to me that those who have benefitted the most from living in this country should pay back the most.
    Rich

    This comment is intended solely for educational purposes and should not be construed as conveying any express or implied warranty of fitness for any other purpose. Said comment constitutes merely the humble opinion of its maker and does not reflect the views of the MLOC or of ML, Ltd. YMMV. Trust your own ears.

  9. #969
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    I look at this from having lived on both sides of the coin. I was on my own and poor at 18. I put myself through college with Pell Grants, student loans, and work/study. Now, Iíve been retired and living off my equity portfolio for the past seventeen years. Coincidentally, my current house actually does have 10 bathrooms.

    I think the rich can survive quite well while still paying their fair share of taxes. Iíve been doing it for seventeen years and never complained. And there are plenty who are a whole lot wealthier than I am. Giving them (and me) a tax break is obscene in my opinion.
    Rich

    This comment is intended solely for educational purposes and should not be construed as conveying any express or implied warranty of fitness for any other purpose. Said comment constitutes merely the humble opinion of its maker and does not reflect the views of the MLOC or of ML, Ltd. YMMV. Trust your own ears.

  10. #970
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich View Post
    I look at this from having lived on both sides of the coin. I was on my own and poor at 18. I put myself through college with Pell Grants, student loans, and work/study. Now, Iíve been retired and living off my equity portfolio for the past seventeen years. Coincidentally, my current house actually does have 10 bathrooms.

    I think the rich can survive quite well while still paying their fair share of taxes. Iíve been doing it for seventeen years and never complained. And there are plenty who are a whole lot wealthier than I am. Giving them (and me) a tax break is obscene in my opinion.
    Haha. Nice!! How is that DMP??

  11. #971
    Super User Rich's Avatar
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    I haven’t had time to listen for the past week. Too busy with Christmas stuff, family, etc. Hopefully I’ll get some time for music tomorrow.
    Rich

    This comment is intended solely for educational purposes and should not be construed as conveying any express or implied warranty of fitness for any other purpose. Said comment constitutes merely the humble opinion of its maker and does not reflect the views of the MLOC or of ML, Ltd. YMMV. Trust your own ears.

  12. #972
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    Wow, Breitbart’s editor-in-chief admitted today that he believed Roy Moore’s accusers and thought Moore was a terrible candidate! This coming from the top editor of the “fake news” rag that vociferously supported Moore and questioned the credibility of his accusers. Just another example of the lies, hypocrisy, and moral turpitude of Steve Bannon and, for that matter, Donald Trump. And of the stupidity of the extremist conservatives that follow and support them. Party over country, indeed. At this point, Breitbart has less credibility than the National Enquirer.
    Rich

    This comment is intended solely for educational purposes and should not be construed as conveying any express or implied warranty of fitness for any other purpose. Said comment constitutes merely the humble opinion of its maker and does not reflect the views of the MLOC or of ML, Ltd. YMMV. Trust your own ears.

  13. #973
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    Quote Originally Posted by timm View Post
    Haha. No 500/mo. 6k per year. I don't have Gordon money!!
    timm,

    I worked for forty five years and was "house poor" for thirty of those which means my house payment exceeded 50% of my net pay which I covered by my lonesome. For the last twenty years of my employment, I worked for a public agency. As you may know, government jobs don't pay a lot of money. However, the good news is my employer had a solid pension plan. For the majority of my working life, I, like many others, lived pay check to pay check and was constantly in debt up to my ears. I rarely took any vacations because I could not afford to take them. And, to the best of my knowledge, the new tax law will likely not benefit me in any manner.

    With my pension, Social Security, house equity and my IRA, I have enough to be "comfortable" in my retirement but I am, by no means, wealthy. And, with all due respect, it was all my effort with no help from anyone else and fortunately, it all worked out in the end.

    Best,

    Gordon

    PS: I'm glad you will see a benefit from the new tax law.
    Last edited by Gordon Gray; 12-23-2017 at 07:04 AM. Reason: PS

  14. #974
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon Gray View Post
    timm,

    I worked for forty five years and was "house poor" for thirty of those which means my house payment exceeded 50% of my net pay which I covered by my lonesome. For the last twenty years of my employment, I worked for a public agency. As you may know, government jobs don't pay a lot of money. However, the good news is my employer had a good pension plan. For the majority of my working life, I, like many others, lived pay check to pay check and was constantly in debt up to my ears. And the new tax law will likely not benefit me in any manner.

    With my pension and Social Security, I have enough to be "comfortable" in my retirement but I am, by no means, wealthy. And, with all due respect, it was all my effort with no help from anyone else and fortunately, it all worked out in the end.

    Best,

    Gordon
    And I hope you know I was just yanking your chain - as a joke. I actually like you guys - and I have a tendency to do that with people I like.

    Have a great holiday.

  15. #975
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    Quote Originally Posted by timm View Post
    My paycheck in feb is going to have quite a bit more in it. And I look at the brackets and can't see how many people could lose on this. So for Dems to say that people are going to pay more? Well I'll just say they either can't do math or don't understand that deductions aren't dollar for dollar. It makes them look bad. I get trying the 'oh things are going to be terrible in the future' ploy. But to say or imply that most Americans will pay more in taxes is just politics. People will see their pay and figure it out.
    FWIW, as a self employed guy with no debt and very few deductions living in a state with no income tax and low property taxes, the new tax structure will benefit me.

    However I can't support what they are doing which is adding tremendous deficit spending. Keep in mind that the GOP would have increased this deficit load even more if they were not limited to adding an additional 1.5 Trillion to our debt. I'll never understand why people are fine when the GOP adds dramatically to our deficits, but democrats are insane when they do it.

    On top of that they are sabotaging the ACA rather than fixing it even though all the impartial estimates are that this will end up costing us more in the long run.

    I see this mentality over and over again.

    So far what have we got?

    Shutting down government enforcement so that corporations can pollute the air and water more and giving injured people little recourse.
    Having no ability to test for harmful chemicals in food coming in from all over the globe.
    Selling off our national park acreage.
    Losing all credibility on the world stage so that we are losing what remained of our leadership in world events.
    Creating an environment where prejudice rules
    Trying to burn more coal which puts more mercury, lead, and other pollution in the air which will cause more people to die from cancer.
    Banning the use of words that Trump doesn't like by government agencies.
    Cutting a bunch of people from healthcare effectively deciding that many of them will die.

    The bottom line is that life has very little value and everything is about corporate profits and keeping money in the wealthy dynasties in this country.
    Last edited by RCHeliGuy; 12-23-2017 at 07:45 AM.
    Mark
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