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Thread: News from Munich High-End, Two New Masterpiece Series Electrostatic Speakers

  1. #31
    Newbie DevinZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GW1800 View Post
    The depth of the box could be an issue for those that have limited space - which I think is many. If you look at many of the systems posted the majority are tighter to the front wall then recommended including my two sets - however with treatments some of this can be mitigated. The Renaissance depth is nearly 30" and then ML recommends another 24" added to that from the front wall. For those that have the room great but I bet many of us just do not. In the pictures for the Expression and Impression they look nearly identical in depth I'm thinking maybe 24" ish hopefully less. Because they now all have a rear firing cone getting tighter to the front wall is even more of an issue. I think most of us can live with 2' or 3' total from the wall but when you get to 4' and beyond you need a pretty special room to accommodate. A music room only possibly but a media room with a flat panel on the front wall not real practical at all. I'm not trying to be all negative here as I heard the Renaissance actually twice and it sounded fantastic and I assume the Expression and Impression will also I'm just trying to figure out placement.
    Hello all! I'm going to jump in here and (hopefully) add some food for thought to this discussion. You’ve noticed in the manual that it recommends 24-inches minimum from the back of the speaker cabinet to the wall. This is an ideal. If you have the space, do it. You won’t be sorry! I realize, however, that the reality of many listening rooms don’t allow for this. That’s why Mr. Vojtko spent so much time addressing bass integration within listening rooms when he engineered these speakers. Multiple features in the new Masterpiece Series speakers help tune the speaker’s bass to your room (and provide flexibility when it comes to placement). ForceForward effectively eliminates the rear traveling bass energy from the speaker which makes the distance from the front wall less critical. As well, the plus or minus 10dB bass knob is there to help address any bass anomalies that might arise due to placement. Additionally, with ARC measurement and correction available for the woofers, getting the bass dialed into your room is easier than ever.

    Whereas the current generation (Summit X/Montis/Ethos/Theos) only has one model with dual woofers (Summit X), these new Masterpiece Series speakers feature dual woofers in all models. Each woofer is independently amplified and each is in its own sealed chamber. Opposing woofers, with sealed chambers, and independent control/amplification are necessary to execute the ForceForward bass topology.

    On a related note, regarding the depth of the cabinets. One of the most critical components of setting up dipole electrostatics is the distance of the stat panel from the front wall. Somewhere around 5 feet of travel (out of phase back wave travels 2.5 feet to the wall, bounces, and 2.5 feet back to where it started= 5 feet) is where the magic really starts to happen with regards to the three dimensional sound staging. The depth of the cabinets helps assure that this critical distance is addressed.
     
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  2. #32
    Newbie DevinZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sleepysurf View Post
    It's also possible that ML intentionally went with "deeper" cabinets to "encourage" owners to place the speaker farther from the wall, where they sound best.
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  3. #33
    Member GW1800's Avatar
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    No I get all that with all the bass improvements in particular will be controlled better to handle less then ideal conditions. I'm very familiar in that I have 2-212's however I was looking for comments on just how close they could get to the front wall and still work. If the boxes are 24" deep I'm thinking that you probably need an additional foot so a total of 3' from wall or do you think you can get closer? I know this will be almost impossible to answer but someone may have a comment.

    Also no one has commented on pricing of out going product does ML discount them or not?
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  4. #34
    Newbie DevinZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GW1800 View Post
    No I get all that with all the bass improvements in particular will be controlled better to handle less then ideal conditions. I'm very familiar in that I have 2-212's however I was looking for comments on just how close they could get to the front wall and still work. If the boxes are 24" deep I'm thinking that you probably need an additional foot so a total of 3' from wall or do you think you can get closer? I know this will be almost impossible to answer but someone may have a comment.
    There's no hard and fast rule. As a starting point and to give the ForceForward configuration room to work, what we recommend is to try keeping the back of the cabinet, at minimum, a distance from the wall that is equal to or greater than the woofer size:

    Renaissance ESL 15A = 12-inches
    Expression ESL 13A = 10-inches
    Impression ESL 11A = 8-inches

    There's an old adage that Mr. Sanders taught me early in my career at MartinLogan. "Trust your ears." Move the speakers and listen, rinse, repeat...until you find the formula that works for your listening space and your personal preferences.
    The man. The myth. The legend.

  5. #35
    Super User sleepysurf's Avatar
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    Devin, can you share the actual cabinet dimensions for the Expression and Impression models?

    Also, will ML have downloadable BF 210/212 filters for matching those subs with the new Masterpiece models?
    Last edited by sleepysurf; 05-10-2016 at 12:54 PM.
    Squeezebox Touch/Bel Canto DAC 3.5VB + Oppo BDP-95 > Conrad-Johnson CT5 preamp and Premier 350 amp > ML Expressions 13A. Dual ML BalancedForce 210 subs. Audience Au24e I/C's, speaker cable.
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  6. #36
    Newbie DevinZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sleepysurf View Post
    Devin, can you share the actual cabinet dimensions for the Expression and Impression models?
    (H x W x D - entire speaker)

    Renaissance ESL 15A: 69.8 x 15.75 x 28.9 inches
    Expression ESL 13A: 61.5 x 13.4 x 27.5 inches
    Impression ESL 11A: 60.75 x 11.9 x 27.4 inches
    The man. The myth. The legend.

  7. #37
    Newbie DevinZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sleepysurf View Post
    Also, will ML have downloadable BF 210/212 filters for matching those subs with the new Masterpiece models?
    Definitely. MartinLogan will offer BalancedForce 212 and 210 custom filters for the new Masterpiece Series speakers. Mr. Vojtko is working on these presently.
    The man. The myth. The legend.

  8. #38
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    So historically what does Martin Logan do with legacy products during a new product release?

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    Devin,

    Thank you very much for joining in to share first hand information with us.

    Could you please tell us what the fate of CLX is going to be?

    It is also being replaced?

  10. #40
    Newbie DevinZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cayman View Post
    Devin,

    Thank you very much for joining in to share first hand information with us.

    Could you please tell us what the fate of CLX is going to be?

    It is also being replaced?
    Cayman-

    I understand your curiosity about MartinLogan's long term product road map. Unfortunately, I am not able to answer questions unless they are about a current product or one that has been announced through an official press release.

    Regards,
    Devin
    The man. The myth. The legend.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DevinZ View Post
    Cayman-

    I understand your curiosity about MartinLogan's long term product road map. Unfortunately, I am not able to answer questions unless they are about a current product or one that has been announced through an official press release.

    Regards,
    Devin
    I understand the limitations and appreciate your response.

    It's just that I almost pulled the trigger on CLX when the Renaissance was announced and wanted to know if the CLXs will be updated with the new techs announced in the new Masterpiece line...

    You sure will understand how disappointed I would be if I buy an eight year old speaker only to find out that the new iteration is out in a few months!

  12. #42
    Super User amey01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cayman View Post

    You sure will understand how disappointed I would be if I buy an eight year old speaker only to find out that the new iteration is out in a few months!
    Your concern is a very valid one, but I understand ML's side as well.

    I'm sure your dealer can help you out there. Negotiate a deal where you buy the speakers only if they guarantee full trade-in if the speaker is replaced within a year (or whatever you want (or can) negotiate). If a dealer wants to make a sale, I'm sure they'll stand by the product they are selling and satisfy your concerns.
    Marantz 8300 SACD / Squeezebox Touch --> Audiolab M-DAC --> Copland CTA-305 --> Classé CA-101 --> MartinLogan Vista / Behringer DEQ2496 --> Whise Profunder sub

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  13. #43
    Senior Member DaVinci Media's Avatar
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    Hello all, we just received notice from ML that our pair of the Expression 13a is on the way to the store! DaVinci Media is one of the first if not the first to get a pair of these great new speakers. Let us know if you'd like to stop by for an audition. We already have the Renaissance 15a's and they are one of the best if not the best speakers we have ever had in the store.

    www.davincimedia.com
    Milwaukee WI
    414-479-1829
    Shawn Millin
    DaVinci Media

  14. #44
    Junior Member dh46374's Avatar
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    I think that the best reason for having opposing woofers would be that they could cancel out each other's backwave and thereby stop the woofer box from causing the panel to vibrate. That would have to improve the sound and I'd be surprised if ML didn't take this opportunity to get that done.

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    Proud owner of brand new ML Expression 13As!!!!!

    They were delivered and installed last night. These are incredible! Married the twins up to a Parasound Integrated amp, ML 210 sub and connected it all together with a smattering of Nordost cables. Very impressed with the speakers but the biggest win was the room correction. WOW. My room is an audio nightmare: narrow deep room, big fluffy couches and a large walk through opening next to one of the speakers. That room correction turned the speakers from a really nice sound to ridiculous. Such a change.

    Big thank you to Shawn Millin of DaVinci Media. I don't know how you did it but you turned Martin Logan's statement of "we hope to start shipping the new speakers this fall" into "how about next week". Bit of a gamble to buy these without actually seeing OR hearing them but I did hear and see the 15As and really wasn't concerned.

    IMPORTANT NOTE! Be very careful when you turn these on! People will come over to listen and drink all of your scotch! I need to go to the liquor store today to restock....

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