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Thread: Room Acoustics - Absorption Panels Behind ML's

  1. #16
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    Thank you Rich (and others) for your input. I will try pulling them out from the forward wall another 8-12" to see how they sound. The sound field is already fantastic, but I would love to see it get even better. It's interesting to note that the ML literature says to place them >24" from front wall, so I figured my setup at 28" was good enough. I will report after I move them to 36".

    Thanks again.

    bikerneil

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    Quote Originally Posted by bikerneil View Post
    Thank you Rich (and others) for your input. I will try pulling them out from the forward wall another 8-12" to see how they sound. The sound field is already fantastic, but I would love to see it get even better. It's interesting to note that the ML literature says to place them >24" from front wall, so I figured my setup at 28" was good enough. I will report after I move them to 36".

    Thanks again.

    bikerneil
    The problem with a hybrid design like ML has is that the best placement for the woofer box is not necessarily the best placement for the panels and vice versa. So you may move them out and find that imaging improves but bass response gets worse. Or not. A lot depends on your room. Will be interested to hear your impressions.

    In general, best imaging and soundstage presentation is going to come with the panels 48" or more from the front wall. Even if you can't keep them there, I would suggest you try them at that distance just to get an idea of what they are capable of.
    Last edited by Rich; 05-17-2016 at 12:14 PM.
    Rich

    This comment is intended solely for educational purposes and should not be construed as conveying any express or implied warranty of fitness for any other purpose. Said comment constitutes merely the humble opinion of its maker and does not reflect the views of the MLOC or of ML, Ltd. YMMV. Trust your own ears.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich View Post
    The problem with a hybrid design like ML has is that the best placement for the woofer box is not necessarily the best placement for the panels and vice versa. So you may move them out and find that imaging improves but bass response gets worse. Or not. A lot depends on your room. Will be interested to hear your impressions.

    In general, best imaging and soundstage presentation is going to come with the panels 48" or more from the front wall. Even if you can't keep them there, I would suggest you try them at that distance just to get an idea of what they are capable of.
    totally agree with Rich on this and with that being said subwoofer placement combined with proper integration will do wonders for the bottom two octaves !
    Dave

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  4. #19
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    Agree with Rich. Also, in that size room, you probably can't get far enough way from them and pull them out from the wall enough to justify diffusion. I would simply absorb that back wave, be done and be very happy!
    CAPS-like music server w/2 external linear PSUs, Win2K12 server + JRiver v21, 6TB eSATA storage, Esoteric K-03 SACD/DAC, Purity Audio Basis Mk 2.2 preamp, Wells Audio Inamorata amp, Usher BE20D speakers (with GR Research xover upgrade), JPS Aluminata spkr cables, JPS Superconductor 3 ICs, Shunyata and PSAudio PCs, Stillpoints,, DIY absorption + diffusion, 3 dedicated 20 amp breakers w/Hubbell HBL5362W receptacles in a ~19 x 17 x 9 listening room.

  5. #20
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    I moved my ML's out away from the front wall to a distance of 36" from the forward wall. The sound quality is noticeably improved. I listened to a series of recordings that I consider to be my baseline CD's for evaluating music in my room and I hear more base and the sound stage is wider and more precise. The overall "sound quality" is improved as well - I now hear small and subtle things that I did not hear before.

    My baseline set of songs includes: Diana Krall - Fly Me To The Moon (from Live in Paris), Spanish Harlem & Isn't She Lovely (from Chesky's "The Worlds Greatest Recordings"), Several songs from Roger Water's "The Pro's and Con's of Hitch Hiking", Linda Rondstadt - What's New & I've Got A Crush on Your (from What's New), and Several songs from Pink Floyd's "The Wall".

    Now that the location of my Source speakers is perfect, I will finally make the move to new ML Montis speakers that I have eyed for the past 2-3 months. I am hoping to see a local retailer run a special on them as I hear ML is discontinuing the Montis line this month or next. I have spent countless hours at all of the audio stores in the San Diego and Orange County areas listening to many, many different lines of speakers and to me - none of them come close to the sound of ML's. For my room size, the Montis seem to be a great match. I actually had a larger budget than I will spend on the Montis's but to me they sound better than any of the $15K speakers that I auditioned. I considered the ML Summit's, but I think the Montis will be a better match for my 13' X 19' room (especially if I am pulling them 3' into the room's depth).

    Thank you again to everyone for your advice. I am somewhat of a newby, but I am coming up the learning curve quickly and appreciate advice and shortcuts to the finish line (if there is such a thing).

    bikerneil

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich View Post
    If you don't understand technical concepts, it's ok to just admit that and defer to those who do. Trying to make fun of science simply because you don't understand it just kind of makes you look pathetic. Especially on a forum like this where there are quite a few technically-savvy individuals.

    I've got 16 years of experience working with and listening to over half a dozen models of ML speakers, experimenting with positioning them in multiple rooms and sound systems, and using bare walls, diffusion and absorption behind them. I'm offering the OP solid advice that is based in science and experience on how to deal with a well known property of ML speakers - the back wave of a dipolar speaker. You come into this thread with less than a dozen posts on the forum and and all you offer is: no one can say because they haven't heard the room.
    I do understand I've been in the audio business for over twenty five years was co designer with Hales Design Group. All of what you are talking about is the inherent problem of a Dipolar/Panel speaker aweful off axis response vertical and horizontal. When you have a friend over he has to have the sweet spot to get the best sound. I have buddies over all the time I have a big room we never worry about where we sit we just listen to music and not play musical chairs. Having to deal with a back wave is a bitch. That is why I'm not a panel fan you turn your head slightly sound changes rolls off. Move up or down slightly sound changes. Not to mention the problem with dynamics. Panels are a one person speaker nothing wrong with that if you want to constantly fiddle with the speaker. and stay completely still like a zombie.
    Do you and rur really enjoy music or is it just big words and terminology. I find it funny how a little joke got your panties all in a wad. And again being a speaker that you have to attend to the back wave of sound and room placement are more critical. I can remember when the ML rep came to my shop Audio Insight in Plano Tx and we had the Grand Utopias with the Levinson mono blocks the Logan's sounded way better in our room way out in the room. In the exact place we had the Utopias. When the rep wanted them closer to the wall but he agreed they did sound better out and away from the wall. Far away from the back reflection. After he spent i kid you not 3 hours of dicking around with placement another problem with panel speaker can't just put them down and get even decent sound. So my only point is numbers and physics are alway there your right. But it does not mean that it will work out that way. BECAUSE EVERY ROOM IS DIFFERENT SO IF YOU TELL PEOPLE ONE CERTAIN WAY YOU ARE GIVING THEM BAD ADVICE BECAUSE THEY WILL NEVER TRULY EXPERIMENT WITH ROOM PLACEMENT. YOU NEVER KNOW UNTIL YOU TRY!!!!! So get off the high horse help people. Sometimes the so called right way may not be the best way.
    Last edited by Norway84; 05-18-2016 at 05:23 AM.

  7. #22
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    Congrats on improving your sound. I wouldn't state that you have found the "perfect" location for your speakers unless you spent a lot of time experimenting with various locations. Let's just say you have found a better position for your setup that works within your particular room's constraints. I would caution you against assuming that this positioning that works well with your Sources will be the optimum position for your Montis. They are a very different speaker in several respects. When you get the Montis and they are broken in, I would recommend starting the positioning process over again, experimenting with multiple positions in the room. Sometimes a few inches can make a huge difference. The Montis is a huge upgrade over the Source. You won't be disappointed.
    Rich

    This comment is intended solely for educational purposes and should not be construed as conveying any express or implied warranty of fitness for any other purpose. Said comment constitutes merely the humble opinion of its maker and does not reflect the views of the MLOC or of ML, Ltd. YMMV. Trust your own ears.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Norway84 View Post
    Do you and rur really enjoy music or is it just big words and terminology I find it funny how a little joke got your panties all in a wad.
    And I find it funny that someone with "over twenty-five years" in the audio design business would dismiss out of hand the science of psycho-acoustics, a science that recording engineers rely on every day. I also find it funny that someone who posted in post #11 of this thread that they were "out of this conversation" is still here a dozen posts later, not to help the O.P. in any meaningful way, but rather for the sole purpose of agitation. Methinks thou art a troll and nothing more.
    Rich

    This comment is intended solely for educational purposes and should not be construed as conveying any express or implied warranty of fitness for any other purpose. Said comment constitutes merely the humble opinion of its maker and does not reflect the views of the MLOC or of ML, Ltd. YMMV. Trust your own ears.

  9. #24
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    So you don't have somebody that agrees with you and you start to get mad and call me a troll. You need a time out you are a frustrated little boy. Just because I've only posted 11 wth does that have to do with my experience. You just have a hard time agreeing with anybody that disagrees with you. And the fact that I have a good point just makes you a unhappy little boy. And then you go back to psycho-acoustics I was first talking about rooms. I believe in psycho acoustics I just made a joke about it you are now putting words in my mouth because again you are hurt because somebody does not agree with you and has not made 3k post. That is the most asinine reason to think you know something about audio because you made a lot of post. Methinks you are frustrated!
    OH I KNOW WHAT IT IS IM NOT A SUPER USER THATS IT LMAO!!
    Last edited by Norway84; 05-18-2016 at 07:44 AM.

  10. #25
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    Thanks for proving my point so succinctly.
    Rich

    This comment is intended solely for educational purposes and should not be construed as conveying any express or implied warranty of fitness for any other purpose. Said comment constitutes merely the humble opinion of its maker and does not reflect the views of the MLOC or of ML, Ltd. YMMV. Trust your own ears.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich View Post
    Thanks for proving my point so succinctly.
    Give me a minute I need to look that word up. Be right back! I think that's a title for a Police album not sure.

  12. #27
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    Forums can be so entertaining..........

  13. #28
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    On this quite Sunday I've decided to follow the suggestions in this and other similar threads to improve the setup in my challenging listening room. I don't have the depth needed for optimal distance from the back wall so I've placed them 40" from the wall and added Echo Buster diffusion panels directly behind the panels. I'm liking what I hear in the areas of clarity, sound stage and surprisingly, impact.
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    Last edited by stereoman; 04-16-2017 at 08:51 AM.

  14. #29
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    Hello, i'm a ML owner newbee, i write from Varese Italy and my name is Roberto.

    In the next week (during 16 of august... tic toc tic toc... ) i will receive a couple of ML Montis and have the same question of Bikerneil with the only difference that i have at home a couple of this http://www.acusticaapplicata.com/volcano.php?lang=ita and i'm thinking to put them in the rear of the Montis.

    Do you think may be a good idea?

    Thank you
    Rob

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Probi View Post
    Hello, i'm a ML owner newbee, i write from Varese Italy and my name is Roberto.

    In the next week (during 16 of august... tic toc tic toc... ) i will receive a couple of ML Montis and have the same question of Bikerneil with the only difference that i have at home a couple of this http://www.acusticaapplicata.com/volcano.php?lang=ita and i'm thinking to put them in the rear of the Montis.

    Do you think may be a good idea?

    Thank you
    Rob
    Hi Rob, that's an interesting device, looks more like a resonator than an absorber/diffuser. So no, I would not recommend putting those behind a dipole like the Montis.
    What you want is an absorber that covers ~250Hz to 15Khz. Not sure what's available in Italy, but there must be some EU acoustics products similar to the RealTraps products.

    Oh, and bienvenuto to the club.
    Jonathan

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