New Vistas. New Amp?

Hello everyone!

I recently found some gently used Vistas + Audioquest Rockefeller cables (Not sure these actually effect the sound IMO) on Craigslist for 1K and decided it was time for an upgrade from the Stylos I had. I'm currently running my setup with a Denon 4306 and wanted everyone's opinion on if it would be worth it to get a separate power amplifier. I've seen the reviews that say that the Denon can put out 240W X2 but it seems like my denon has always run hot. I'm happy so far with the sound on the Denon but I noticed the speakers can take up for 400W and I certainly don't want to underpower them.

I was looking to get something like the Emotiva XPA-2. Do you think there would be an audible difference? What would cause this difference? What happens if you underpower speakers like I am doing now? Will it cause damage?

Any thoughts would be appreciated

Thanks,

cloo24 said:

I'm happy so far with the sound on the Denon but I noticed the speakers can take up for 400W and I certainly don't want to underpower them.

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How are you determining your "400W" if the receiver can put out "240W"?
Btw, the difference between 400W and 250W is barely 2dB. Also I think you'll risk blowing the woofers in the Vista at under 200W....

The 400 W comes from the vista specs, how would I blow a speaker by under powering?

cloo24 said:

The 400 W comes from the vista specs, how would I blow a speaker by under powering?

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It is much easier to blow speakers by under powering - because the chances of running the amp into clipping are greater.

I'm a bit bemused by what Tosh said - he is very correct is asserting that the difference is "barely 2dB". You will be fine with even 60-80w for a Vista (in a small room).

The most important thing is a good quality amplifier.

Thanks for the response. Would the denon 4306 be considered good enough or do you think I need to get a dedicated power amp?

amey01 said:

It is much easier to blow speakers by under powering - because the chances of running the amp into clipping are greater.

I'm a bit bemused by what Tosh said - he is very correct is asserting that the difference is "barely 2dB". You will be fine with even 60-80w for a Vista (in a small room).

The most important thing is a good quality amplifier.

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Clipping generates high frequency harmonic distortion, and that is very hard on tweeters, not woofers. Electrostatic speakers are not very prone to damage from this...they don't have a tiny voice coil like a typical tweeter.

cloo24 said:

Thanks for the response. Would the denon 4306 be considered good enough or do you think I need to get a dedicated power amp?

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Hi,
I'm a Vista owner too. Your denon receiver on paper has adequate power to drive the Vistas. However in reality, its puny power supply and power storage, plus all the inteferences from jamming everything inside one unit, would not make the speakers sound great and to their potentials. IMHO, you should get separate power amp(s) with dedicated power supply/storage and choose quality over quantity. I mean you dont need to get an amp that output 400-500w/channel if you can get a simple circuit class A amp rated at say 150w. For example, I have a pair of Emotiva UPA-1 monos (350w) that would be comparable with a XPA-2 (or even better/more musical) and they get blown out of the water by my pair of Monarchy SM70Pro monos (120w) in term of sound quality (details, sound stage, transparency, smoothness, vocal sweetness, etc.). Most of Emotiva amps are great for home theater applications, and give you best bang for you buck for power and dynamics, but I feel like they're still a step behind a quality sounding amp like Monarchy.

Since you're interested in Emotiva, if you can afford, I think you should try their SA-250 Studio Ref amp (read good things about it compared to the XPA line). Or, get a pair of XPA-1s that can run in class A for the first 60w as this is all you need for normal listening and still have a lot reserved power if you want to crank it up. However, I think the best Emo amp for the Vista is the XPA-1L, if money is a concern. They discontinued it but you still can find a pair in used market.
If you're open to other brands, you can ask people here in MLO for what they have and like or read the sticky article on choosing power amps. On top of my head, I can recommend Mark Levison, Pass Labs and the affordable Monarchy Audio amps.

Peter Hogan said:

Clipping generates high frequency harmonic distortion, and that is very hard on tweeters, not woofers. Electrostatic speakers are not very prone to damage from this...they don't have a tiny voice coil like a typical tweeter.

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No, cliipping generates DC - which can blow anything........but tweeters are more susceptible, yes.

cloo24 said:

I'm happy so far with the sound on the Denon but I noticed the speakers can take up for 400W (snip)

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Doh! That's pretty funny how literally I took that statement: as if your speakers had actually taken 400W. Because this one time, back in Tampa for a big street party on Bayshore, I borrowed an actual 400W Soundcraftsman for the 8inch bass drivers in my concrete towers, and it was killer.

But I was also alluding to the woofers in Vista not being so sturdy (going by pics here on MLO), so don't do that.

Great score on that pair. I've never seen Vista's priced so affordably! I'd put nothing less than a Sunfire amp, 400wpc 4 ohm with the Vista's...affordable and available used everywhere. A Plinius amp would yield "superior" results...but a Sunfire at minimum...no receiver recommendations from me. And a good sub...even a small ML Grotto i, also available used, would be perfect to mate with the Vista's. Congratulations!

amey01 said:

No, cliipping generates DC - which can blow anything........but tweeters are more susceptible, yes.

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If the audio signal only clipped on the positive, or negative rail, it could generate DC, but it clips on both rails, which cancels out any DC that might appear on the speaker outputs. The sharp edges at the corners of the clip are very high frequency, rich in even higher frequency harmonics, which all get piped to the tweeter in a normal speaker.
Most amps have DC protection circuits that disconnect the speakers if they detect any DC at the speaker outputs.

Thanks for all of the replies!

I've been offered a trade for my ML Stylos on craigslist. He's offering a carver 1.5 for the stylos. Any thoughts on this amp?

Thanks

It can still blow speakers.......

Peter Hogan said:

Most amps have DC protection circuits that disconnect the speakers if they detect any DC at the speaker outputs.

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True.

Get familiar with the speakers over a month time. Find out what you would like to improve sonically by buying a new amp; less harsh, more headroom, more dynamic, better soundstage, more controoled bass, more powerful bass,...

Then decide upon a budget, and borrow a couple of different amos (tubes, class A/B, class D,...). That way, you will be able to make a decision that will keep you happy longer.

Also note that it can take more than a month for you Vistas to "settle" in their new home with different humidity, experiments with placement, toe-in, tilt, etc. Vacuum clean the panels once a week the first month to get rid of any dust it have from the previous owners or from transport.

Finally: Congratulations on a very good deal on those speakers!

cloo24 said:

Hello everyone!

I recently found some gently used Vistas + Audioquest Rockefeller cables (Not sure these actually effect the sound IMO) on Craigslist for 1K and decided it was time for an upgrade from the Stylos I had. I'm currently running my setup with a Denon 4306 and wanted everyone's opinion on if it would be worth it to get a separate power amplifier. I've seen the reviews that say that the Denon can put out 240W X2 but it seems like my denon has always run hot. I'm happy so far with the sound on the Denon but I noticed the speakers can take up for 400W and I certainly don't want to underpower them.

I was looking to get something like the Emotiva XPA-2. Do you think there would be an audible difference? What would cause this difference? What happens if you underpower speakers like I am doing now? Will it cause damage?

Any thoughts would be appreciated

Thanks,

Click to expand...

Hi,

Stylos was launced in 1993. Therefore, good idea to upgrade with more recent Vista. Emotiva XPA-2 should be a good choice for Vista because it has a 1200VA transformer. Still the Emotiva is rated for 4 ohms. The Vista’s have a resistance falls from 4 ohms to 1.2 ohms at 20khz. I have never heard Emotiva amps so I may not be able to say how amp. will sound. However from the specifications there may be slight roll off of high frequencies audible from Vista’s. But the Emotiva XPA-2 may not clip easily since it is quite powerful and Vista recommended amplifier power is only 100 -200 watts per channel.

I would not buy a secondhand carver amp whose history I do not know. Sell the Stylos and buy Emotiva XPA-2. It is better to buy new than second hand. Because second owner goods may be defective due to depreciation. For example, the problem of audible channel imbalance in Vista’s. New would not have this problem. Though the ES panel might only be in the need for proper cleaning.

Conclusion:
Congratulations on purchase of Vista’s. A great loudspeaker utilizing XStat technology and aluminum high resolution woofers.

Cloo,

A power amp will operate within the limitations of a receiver’s pre-amp section. It will go louder (if electrical parameters are matched), but it may not sound significantly different otherwise. To realize the full potential of the power amp, the receiver itself may have to be replaced. Of course, having separate power amps will enable that replacement in the first place. It is a good starting point. Just be prepared for to spend more once you get started.

You mentioned the XPA-2. Emotiva’s current XPA series is Generation 2. Gen 3 has just been announced. Gen 3 XPAs will be upgradeable with more channels. Start with 2, add 3 more later when you need them. The new generation will cost more than the current series though. IIRC, rcheliguy owns the gen 2 XPA-2. You could PM him for first hand experience.