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sb6 said:
Here's another data point - Take a gander over at WBF . . . and do a tally of what is most prevalent among the forum "owners" and most experienced audio listeners. While many have had their share of MLs, almost none have kept them.
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Except me! : )

I have noticed this too. My theory is that while I happen to value midrange transparency as my highest sonic priority, most people seem to have other priorities, and these other priorities (e.g., dynamics) tend to favor dynamic driver speakers. I think that most audiophiles with dynamic driver speakers agree that electrostatic speakers have a more transparent midrange than their dynamic driver speakers, but such audiophiles simply value other sonic attributes more highly than they value midrange transparency.
 
RonR said:
Except me! : )

I have noticed this too. My theory is that while I happen to value midrange transparency as my highest sonic priority, most people seem to have other priorities, and these other priorities (e.g., dynamics) tend to favor dynamic driver speakers. I think that most audiophiles with dynamic driver speakers agree that electrostatic speakers have a more transparent midrange than their dynamic driver speakers, but such audiophiles simply value other sonic attributes more highly than they value midrange transparency.
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Sorry Ron, I can't agree wrt the ML midrange. Switching from ML Summits (which I loved btw) to Usher BE20Ds was like a quilt was removed. And this was before upgrading all speaker internals.

Quick story - when the Ushers were breaking in, my wife would sit down and say, "You're sure they'll get better, right?". About 200 hours break-in time later without provocation she said "Oh my, these are much better, everything is much clearer and more real". Couldn't have said it better myself.

I think people who are hooked on MLs (especially the older models) and their adoration for ML midrange is actually midrange bloom/imbalance. I equate it as fun to hear every now and again (like turning up your sub to get gobs of bass for electronica for example) but inaccurate/unpleasant for any length of time listening.

Give me a pair of TAD Ref 1s anytime!

Disclaimer: YMMV :)
 
There is nothing to be sorry about. We do not have to agree. : ) There is nothing wrong with us hearing different things.
 
sb6 said:
I think people who are hooked on MLs (especially the older models) and their adoration for ML midrange is actually midrange bloom/imbalance.
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What do you mean by bloom?

Can you have two speakers with the same frequency response at a given volume and have one exhibit this bloom you speak of?

Can this be measured in any way?
 
3 questions:

1. Did you compare arrakis to xlf and other extreme speakers?
2. What kind of room is this going into?
3. Can you adopt me?
 
Joey_V said:
3 questions:

1. Did you compare arrakis to xlf and other extreme speakers?
2. What kind of room is this going into?
3. Can you adopt me?
Click to expand...
Joey, I was thinking of asking YOU to adopt ME!

Different universes!
 
I love and listen to a lot of female vocals, so if "midrange bloom" means expansion of the singer's voice to increase the presence and bring her into the room, it explains why I like my SL3s so much. In fact, even after I listened to Roberto's CLXes a couple of times (with their superior resolution) I still was able to appreciate music on my system.

I can't help but wonder if owners of the uber-expensive systems described above sometimes just relax and enjoy the music.
 
Bernard said:
I can't help but wonder if owners of the uber-expensive systems described above sometimes just relax and enjoy the music.
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Sort of like the guys who own lots of vacation homes around the world, but are work-o-holics ?

I've met many people who've wanted something all their life and when they finally got it, didn't have time to use it whether it be a large houseboat a fleet of sports cars etc..

There are others who really know how to enjoy life, but most of the guys I know with serious income work long hours.
 
All those old ESL hybrids can be brought to modern ML bass performance levels with active xo. Active xo on the bass with passive xo and eq on the ESL is the best of all worlds.
 
I
RCHeliGuy said:
Sort of like the guys who own lots of vacation homes around the world, but are work-o-holics ?

I've met many people who've wanted something all their life and when they finally got it, didn't have time to use it whether it be a large houseboat a fleet of sports cars etc..

There are others who really know how to enjoy life, but most of the guys I know with serious income work long hours.
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I was thinking more in terms of people sitting rigidly in a head-in-a-vise position listening intently to every nuance of the latest audiophile recording, rather than just relaxing and enjoying the music.....or in Roberto's case pulling out one of his guitars and playing along.
 
RCHeliGuy said:
What do you mean by bloom?

Can you have two speakers with the same frequency response at a given volume and have one exhibit this bloom you speak of?

Can this be measured in any way?
Click to expand...

Search for "bloom" in any Audio forum and you'll get quite a few posts. I would best describe it as an unnatural exaggeration and focus on mid range frequencies. Play MLs with tubes and most ML lovers are in heaven. I was there for years until I heard very good cones (Slowgeezer's was one).

Can two speakers measure the same and one have mid bloom? Don't know, never measured nor cared to find out. However, factory freq. response is only 1 piece of data, measuring in your room is more useful, also RT60 is probably almost as important. Graphs have their place, but ultimately, I use my ears. :rocker:
 
RonR said:
But, on balance, and among the senior, experienced members, I think the WBF discussions are interesting, thoughtful, intellectual and engaging. At its best the discourse on WBF is surprising and impressive to me both for its intellectual content and for the audio hobby experience of some of its members. None of the other audio forums I have seen come close to WBF at its best.
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Ron, WBF reminds me of my mother who had dimentia in her later years. She had good days and bad days. She, like most folks with this awful mental condition, kept repeating herself in her bad days. Obvious comparison is WBF and their incessant desire, amongst certain members, to discuss the O V S topic ad nauseum.

I fully agree that on good days, WBF can be quite insightful. On the bad ones, which seem to happen more often than not these days, one reads these constant reiterations from folks that have said the same thing again and again and again on both sides of the argument. From any reasonable person's perspective, this is obsessive / compulsive behavior on the part of certain individuals that is clearly neurotic and underscores a lack of self confidence in their personal core, at least as it pertains to this hobby.

Best,

Gordon

PS: I was fully expecting a PM from one of the WBF mods this AM indicating that I would be banned from further posting and frankly, I could care less. I've had this discussion with Steve in the past and his final post, before he closed the thread, showed alot of class and I believe, a clear recognition of the problems, detailed above, that exist on the WBF forum.

And I agree that WBF can be quite educational / informative for you in your quest to assemble a SOTA system. There are folks on that forum who have been there / done that and can provide their personal insight and experiences to assist you in making the "right" decisions the "first" time.
 
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Joey_V said:
3 questions:

1. Did you compare arrakis to xlf and other extreme speakers?
2. What kind of room is this going into?
3. Can you adopt me?
Click to expand...

1. I am fairly familiar with Wilson X2 and XLF.

I was invited to audition the MBL X-Treme at the factory, but my experience with the 101E Mk II (with which I was absolutely enthralled initially, but I found ultimately to be slightly too bright even with tube electronics) suggests that adding another pair of tweeters (with the X-Treme) is not going to improve my brightness issue.

My first "religious" experience of the audio variety was listening to Infinity IRS Vs in 1988 at Lyric Hi-Fi in Manhattan (with Goldmund reference turntable and Jadis JA-200s).

I will be listening to Genesis 1.1s in December.

I have never heard the top Magico, YG, Sonus Faber or Tidal. But the Arrakis is the only dynamic driver speaker for which I would consider divorcing ML.

2. My room is a dedicated space, but not a dedicated room, meaning there is nothing going in the space except the stereo, but the right sidewall is 1/4 open to a large equipment room and the left side wall is 1/4 open to a hallway and 2/3 open to a kitchen. The room is 20' wide, 25' long and 14' high.

3. Can you cook?
 
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Gordon Gray said:
I fully agree that on good days, WBF can be quite insightful. On the bad ones, which seem to happen more often than not these days, one reads these constant reiterations from folks that have said the same thing again and again and again on both sides of the argument.

PS: I was fully expecting a PM from one of the WBF mods this AM indicating that I would be banned from further posting and frankly, I could care less. I've had this discussion with Steve in the past and his final post, before he closed the thread, showed alot of class and I believe, a clear recognition of the problems, detailed above, that exist on the WBF forum.

And I agree that WBF can be quite educational / informative for you in your quest to assemble a SOTA system. There are folks on that forum who have been there / done that and can provide their personal insight and experiences to assist you in making the "right" decisions the "first" time.
Click to expand...

I am glad you have found WBF to insightful, educational and informative. I have too. I have enjoyed the hobby for 27 years, and I like to think I know a fair amount. I have been very impressed with, and even shocked by, the depth and breadth of the experience of the more senior members on WBF.

I have been very active on WBF since April of 2015, and I feel Steve has been supportive of my posting efforts to raise even higher the level of the analytical integrity and the caliber of the discourse in members' posts. I write an Introspection and Hyperbole Control report when I conclude a member's or a professional reviewer's hyperbole grossly exceeds the evidence or analysis supporting the assertion.

I posted on WBF a critique of Peter Breuninger's video review of the Kronos turntable. See post #222 at http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?18367-Introspection-and-hyperbole-control/page23 I did not comment on the review at all on AVShowroomsforums. Peter's response to my critique on WBF of his Kronos review was to delete my account on AVShowroomsforums. I can almost guarantee you that no member of WBF will be banned from WBF for posting a critique which is well-written, sober and logical.

I have been fortunate to get to know Steve quite well and I find him to be a supremely classy guy.
 
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I hope you realize that shun mook being the best thing in hifi and lampi being the best digital is not hyperbole and the only introspection required is by those who haven't demoed either? ;)
 
Gordon Gray said:
PS: I was fully expecting a PM from one of the WBF mods this AM indicating that I would be banned from further posting and frankly, I could care less. I've had this discussion with Steve in the past and his final post, before he closed the thread, showed alot of class and I believe, a clear recognition of the problems, detailed above, that exist on the WBF forum.
Click to expand...

WBF seldom bans unless a member is using abusive language or spamming, etc. Criticisms are quite welcome and they believe in the free market way of allowing these things to work out.
 
There is a problem.

The problem is Silbatone / GIP and the Korean millionaire produce a sound that simply needs to be heard to be believed.

It is so outside of the norm, that speakers like the Vox Olympian (really not that good according to my ears), Martin Logan Neolith (more my idea of good sound than the VOX), the Rockport 2nd in command (I've only heard Altair with Absolare) etc etc all fail to be able to do a hint of what some of this Korean's systems can accomplish on a subjective level.

You just have to hear it. It is that simple. Once heard, you know. Kedar knows. I know. We both starred into each other's faces laughing in amazement know.

Technically these system's surely fail, though. What a paradox.

In other words they major on an almost unbelievable subjective experience at the expense of being technically very poor in some areas but actually technically very good in others. It is a completely different parameter set to the norm. And it works.
 
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To answer SB6' query of if I have done a survey, if he hangs out in that room and at Munich two years in a row, and on the forum Lenco heaven, then he will get substantial stats to prove that view
 
bonzo said:
Criticisms are quite welcome and they believe in the free market way of allowing these things to work out.
Click to expand...

Based on my personal experience with some moderators, I beg to differ.

That's fine. We can agree to disagree.

I find WBF to quite irrelevant to my audio interests anymore but many like to hang there.

Also, it is a good thing they ban threads regarding religion and politics.

It works here at MLO but would likely be a disaster on that forum.
 
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