MartinLogans to Rockports?
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Gordon Gray
Well-known member
Ron,
You may want to consider taking a visit to Washington State and possibly Colorado and New Jersey.
You can visit Andy Payor / Rockport designer and manufacturer and Mike Lavigne of WBF in Washington State.
Assuming Mike agrees to a visit, he will hopefully share all of his trials and tribulations in assembling the system he currently has (as I understand it, a ten to fifteen year process to date), which consists of the MM7 Evolution speakers, Dartzeel electronics, several turntables, a couple of reel to reels and other very wonderful but pricey items. He stated recently he had some $50K plus (retail price) invested in wires at one point in time which, I assume he subsequently sold.
Andy is the best person to discuss Rockport speakers since he's the "man".
One would think for the amount of money you are considering spending on a stereo system, this would be a very inexpensive investment so you can become a better informed consumer before laying down the big bucks.
The other manufacturer you may also consider is YG. They are located in Colorado and I assume Yoav would gladly meet with you to discuss his product line. You can also visit Bill Parrish / GTT Audio in New Jersey approx. 90 miles west of NYC. He built a 5,000 sq. ft. addition onto his house and created several dedicated listening with equipment at various price points. I visited to listen to my current speakers. In his "main" room, he has a SOTA system built around YG's top speakers with commensurate SOTA electronics.
In the end, I personally would not attempt to do this on your own. You run the risk of making some uninformed decisions, which may cost you substantial dollars in the end assuming you are not happy with your initial choices. Due diligence is a good thing.
Again, good luck.
Gordon
You may want to consider taking a visit to Washington State and possibly Colorado and New Jersey.
You can visit Andy Payor / Rockport designer and manufacturer and Mike Lavigne of WBF in Washington State.
Assuming Mike agrees to a visit, he will hopefully share all of his trials and tribulations in assembling the system he currently has (as I understand it, a ten to fifteen year process to date), which consists of the MM7 Evolution speakers, Dartzeel electronics, several turntables, a couple of reel to reels and other very wonderful but pricey items. He stated recently he had some $50K plus (retail price) invested in wires at one point in time which, I assume he subsequently sold.
Andy is the best person to discuss Rockport speakers since he's the "man".
One would think for the amount of money you are considering spending on a stereo system, this would be a very inexpensive investment so you can become a better informed consumer before laying down the big bucks.
The other manufacturer you may also consider is YG. They are located in Colorado and I assume Yoav would gladly meet with you to discuss his product line. You can also visit Bill Parrish / GTT Audio in New Jersey approx. 90 miles west of NYC. He built a 5,000 sq. ft. addition onto his house and created several dedicated listening with equipment at various price points. I visited to listen to my current speakers. In his "main" room, he has a SOTA system built around YG's top speakers with commensurate SOTA electronics.
In the end, I personally would not attempt to do this on your own. You run the risk of making some uninformed decisions, which may cost you substantial dollars in the end assuming you are not happy with your initial choices. Due diligence is a good thing.
Again, good luck.
Gordon
Gordon Gray
Well-known member
Agreed Kedar. But it reignited the neurotic / insecure O v S discussion that continually exists on the WBF forum.
Good tip, GG. Mike lavigne's new favorite toy is the GG - as in the lampi golden gate 
. Probably the only thing in hifi that will be common between guys like him and audiocrack on one side and me on the other.
That said, I wouldn't recommend Mike's place for a visit for another reason: his system is about money and about making sure every detail is maxxed out...have 10k active isolation under your component, then change it's SMPS to linear power supply, etc. Hardly any of us can gain from seeing what's been done. Ron is visiting audiocrack in EU anyway, so am i. He has two Mike lavigne like systems, including the lampi. Mike's place will be great for general hifi tourism.
The system to learn from for most of us is Marty's. Whether it's a budget like Ron's or much lesser. And ddk's. I am planning to do that london Utah trek
Ps: he heard the Rockport at Andy's.
. Probably the only thing in hifi that will be common between guys like him and audiocrack on one side and me on the other.That said, I wouldn't recommend Mike's place for a visit for another reason: his system is about money and about making sure every detail is maxxed out...have 10k active isolation under your component, then change it's SMPS to linear power supply, etc. Hardly any of us can gain from seeing what's been done. Ron is visiting audiocrack in EU anyway, so am i. He has two Mike lavigne like systems, including the lampi
. Mike's place will be great for general hifi tourism. The system to learn from for most of us is Marty's. Whether it's a budget like Ron's or much lesser. And ddk's. I am planning to do that london Utah trek
Ps: he heard the Rockport at Andy's.
Gordon Gray
Well-known member
Kedar,
Have you heard ML's system?
Come visit if you're in Utah. Not very far from Jackson and the outdoors / scenery here is quite spectacular.
Gordon
Have you heard ML's system?
Come visit if you're in Utah. Not very far from Jackson and the outdoors / scenery here is quite spectacular.
Gordon
Oh really? How far are you from Vegas Airport and Cedar City. You should go visit ddk.
I haven't heard Lavigne's. But have heard from people who have heard his. Thing is it is a system with lot of expensive components thrown in. Marty's is a system with smart stuff, normal stuff, principles of which can be used by you, me, Joey or Ken. Audiocrack's one room has Tidal La Assoluta, the other room has Genesis' biggest speakers. And a few SOTA TTs. And he has mooks and lampi to top it up/
Gordon Gray
Well-known member
Kedar,
FWIW, I'm quite happy with my system and I'm through looking down the rabbit hole.
I may pursue one more Shunyata Research Cobra IC, if I can find a good deal, but that's about it on the hardware side in the near term.
I also am going to pursue researching and eventually purchasing some type of high quality / easy to use streaming device but again, I'm in no hurry. What I hear on XM with my Magnum Dynalab tuner is just fine at the moment.
Finally, I have no interest in going to hear someone else's alleged SOTA system and certainly would not travel to do so.
All that matters to me, at this point moving forward in the audio world, is enjoying listening to music.
Gordon
FWIW, I'm quite happy with my system and I'm through looking down the rabbit hole.
I may pursue one more Shunyata Research Cobra IC, if I can find a good deal, but that's about it on the hardware side in the near term.
I also am going to pursue researching and eventually purchasing some type of high quality / easy to use streaming device but again, I'm in no hurry. What I hear on XM with my Magnum Dynalab tuner is just fine at the moment.
Finally, I have no interest in going to hear someone else's alleged SOTA system and certainly would not travel to do so.
All that matters to me, at this point moving forward in the audio world, is enjoying listening to music.
Gordon
Joey_V
Well-known member
Ah... this is a very good thread for me.
I have moved from ML Vantage/Summits.. and into the dynamic speaker arena. One of the speakers I have been very interested in and have quite a bit of exposure to is exactly what you are asking... the Rockport Avior and Atria.
To me, I would say that it is a great move.
Panels have their sound, it's very cohesive.
But I gotta say, a good system around a pair of Rockports will rock you.
Everyone hears differently and people "rank" certain sonic attributes differently.
I rank image density and soundstaging as #1, then I go by tone #2.
As a reference, I have had in my possession the BW 802 Diamonds and the Sonus Faber Stradivari. Incoming will be the BW 800D3. And perhaps a Wilson Sabrina. The Rockports are also in consideration by me.
I have moved from ML Vantage/Summits.. and into the dynamic speaker arena. One of the speakers I have been very interested in and have quite a bit of exposure to is exactly what you are asking... the Rockport Avior and Atria.
To me, I would say that it is a great move.
Panels have their sound, it's very cohesive.
But I gotta say, a good system around a pair of Rockports will rock you.
Everyone hears differently and people "rank" certain sonic attributes differently.
I rank image density and soundstaging as #1, then I go by tone #2.
As a reference, I have had in my possession the BW 802 Diamonds and the Sonus Faber Stradivari. Incoming will be the BW 800D3. And perhaps a Wilson Sabrina. The Rockports are also in consideration by me.
sb6
Well-known member
I concur with Slowgeezr and heard the same system with Arrakis several times. While I haven't heard the Neoliths I've heard most other MLs and owned Summits and SL3s. I wouldn't put MLs in the same league as the Arrakis, one of the finest speakers I've ever heard and 2x the price of the Neos.
As for ML "mid range clarity vs Arrakis" if you are achieving better clarity than the Arrakis, you must be watching a live band because MLs just aren't anywhere near it and to be frank are more mid range colored/bold/syrupy which is what I believe many ML owners love. Sorry to say it but it's the truth...
If you have the funds for Arrakis I'd also recommend YGs, Evolution Acoustics, Wilson XLF, Tidals, TAD Ref 1s...
My opinion of course, YMMV....
As for ML "mid range clarity vs Arrakis" if you are achieving better clarity than the Arrakis, you must be watching a live band because MLs just aren't anywhere near it and to be frank are more mid range colored/bold/syrupy which is what I believe many ML owners love. Sorry to say it but it's the truth...
If you have the funds for Arrakis I'd also recommend YGs, Evolution Acoustics, Wilson XLF, Tidals, TAD Ref 1s...
My opinion of course, YMMV....
I am not commenting on how good Neolith is compared to Arrakis, but comparing a 10k martin Logan to it to opine doesn't make sense.
The Aviors with 100k tenor audio amps and total dac's top of the range in a highly treated room were no match for a newbie's Summit set up with AR.Ref 3, Ref 110 and then a mid level lampi. Not to mention the owner of that system wants to move to panels.
Both Ron and I will be listening to Tidal La Assoluta next month.
And Vivid giya G1, though they are tough to set up, should be on that list too
Those are the 'hifi show' category speakers - all sounding the same with Diana Krall and Dire Straits and transparent opus cabling. And then we come to the category of trios with bass horns, western electrics, Yamamura, Siemens Bionors, which remind us what live classical sounds like
The Aviors with 100k tenor audio amps and total dac's top of the range in a highly treated room were no match for a newbie's Summit set up with AR.Ref 3, Ref 110 and then a mid level lampi. Not to mention the owner of that system wants to move to panels.
Both Ron and I will be listening to Tidal La Assoluta next month.
And Vivid giya G1, though they are tough to set up, should be on that list too
Those are the 'hifi show' category speakers - all sounding the same with Diana Krall and Dire Straits and transparent opus cabling. And then we come to the category of trios with bass horns, western electrics, Yamamura, Siemens Bionors, which remind us what live classical sounds like
Some perspective guys:
1. Do think about why the owner of Hyundai, a multi-billionaire who can buy any of the above systems for his Kitchen system, chooses the WE, and spends a 100k to fly them over to Munich so people can listen to them. And why do people travel to listen to those, and those who like them, do not then like the 400k Vox Olympian, the 600k Magico Ultimate, TADs, Tidals etc playing in the other rooms. He connects his gear with $5 cabling.
2. Will be visiting a guy in Italy. Will wait for summer to hit though, it's a bit miserable in winter where he is located. His fifth system is a Vivid Giya G1 with Halcro. His 2nd is a Goldmund Apologue. His first is Yamamura.
3. Why would Steve Williams, who has been in this hobby for 50 years, stop in his tracks and start changing stuff on listening to ddk's Siemens Bionors. He has heard hifi show speakers multiple times and himself has the Alexandrias?
This speaker plays only till 75hz, then has to be crossed over (which with this speaker will always be an issue) yet will beat many speakers on the 'hifi' list http://www.martinloganowners.com/fo...n-Electric-Leipzig-Germany&highlight=electric
1. Do think about why the owner of Hyundai, a multi-billionaire who can buy any of the above systems for his Kitchen system, chooses the WE, and spends a 100k to fly them over to Munich so people can listen to them. And why do people travel to listen to those, and those who like them, do not then like the 400k Vox Olympian, the 600k Magico Ultimate, TADs, Tidals etc playing in the other rooms. He connects his gear with $5 cabling.
2. Will be visiting a guy in Italy. Will wait for summer to hit though, it's a bit miserable in winter where he is located. His fifth system is a Vivid Giya G1 with Halcro. His 2nd is a Goldmund Apologue. His first is Yamamura.
3. Why would Steve Williams, who has been in this hobby for 50 years, stop in his tracks and start changing stuff on listening to ddk's Siemens Bionors. He has heard hifi show speakers multiple times and himself has the Alexandrias?
This speaker plays only till 75hz, then has to be crossed over (which with this speaker will always be an issue) yet will beat many speakers on the 'hifi' list http://www.martinloganowners.com/fo...n-Electric-Leipzig-Germany&highlight=electric
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Joey_V
Well-known member
Different strokes for different folks, I guess.
All I am saying is don't rule out demoing them. It is good to challenge ones perspective. Just like you moved from panels to boxes, Joey, you won't know until you hear these. We will be able to make a call of different strokes for different folks only if all folks made their decisions after listening to these different designs. It just disturbs me, rightly or wrongly, if people do it based on big dollar brands at hifi shows.
As the lampi has gone on to prove, a 10k thing is beating 100k ones with a 100% strike rate
RonR
Well-known member
Thank you, but as Bonzo reports and I concur, the Summit X is no match for the Arrakis (except possibly in the area of midrange transparency). The Neolith is in a different league than the Summit.
RonR
Well-known member
Hi Ron,
With all due respect, WBF is absolutely obsessed (neurotic IMHO) discussing the objective versus subjective topic.
Good luck on your journey. I hope you don't waste alot of cash in your hunt for perfection. Very few people have taken the journey that you are about to embark upon and many have spent an enormous amount of money before they arrived at their "desired" destination.
PPS: Ron, looks like your "natural" thread on WBF is close to going down in flames (thread closed) for the same reasons as the previous O vs S discussions. 438 posts and counting. What a surprise.
Dear Gordon,
Thank you for your thoughts.
I agree that discussions on WBF sometimes get out of hand -- especially on the objective versus subjective topics. It is a public forum, after all, and anytime you deal with the public in any field you sometimes do not know what you are getting.
But, on balance, and among the senior, experienced members, I think the WBF discussions are interesting, thoughtful, intellectual and engaging. At its best the discourse on WBF is surprising and impressive to me both for its intellectual content and for the audio hobby experience of some of its members. None of the other audio forums I have seen come close to WBF at its best.
Thank you for your concern, but, while I am at risk of spending a lot of money, I feel I am at not at risk of wasting a lot of money through a never-ending audio search. I am not an equipment swapper. I have had the same stereo, literally without changing a thing, for the last 18 or so years.
My journey takes me to two (and only two) different interpretations of reproduced music -- Neolith and Arrakis. ML is in that fight because my highest sonic priority is midrange transparency on female vocals. The fact that the Neolith even is in that fight with Arrakis (which is inarguably one of the nominees for best speaker in the history of the world) is, I think, a testament to the inherent theoretical superiority of the electrostatic design. (Of course if an audiophile listens only to "power rock" (whatever that is) than he probably would be choosing among competing dynamic driver designs.) And it still is not a fair fight. A Neolith with two 12" woofers and two 15" woofers per side would be the speaker I would want to put in the boxing ring,and bet on, with Arrakis.
I think most of the discussion on my "natural" thread has been good and intellectually meritorious and engaging.
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RonR
Well-known member
Thank you; I should have written "slightly mischievous." : )
RonR
Well-known member
I am sure Mike's system is completely amazing. Thank you for your suggestions.
RonR
Well-known member
Thank your for replying. I also heard the Altair (with Brinkmann turntable, Brinkmann tonearm, and BAT electronics).
If you rank image density as #1, and tone as #2 then I think the Rockports are your answer. My highest sonic priority is midrange transparency on female vocals, which is why I have had ML speakers for the last 26 years.
sb6
Well-known member
Bonzo, with all due respect, your points are highly generic and are cherry picked to bolster your case.
example: "And why do people travel to listen to those, and those who like them, do not then like the 400k Vox Olympian, the 600k Magico Ultimate, TADs, Tidals etc playing in the other rooms."
People = ?? Did you do a survey of a significant statistical quantity to confirm the majority don't like 400k Vox Olympian, the 600k Magico Ultimate, TADs, Tidals?
"
Here's another data point - Take a gander over at WBF (I know Gordon, there can be condescension and data nuts there) and do a tally of what is most prevalent among the forum "owners" and most experienced audio listeners. While many have had their share of MLs, almost none have kept them. Here's a closer to home stat - How many people on THIS site have had MLs, enjoyed them but realized there are better options closer to sonic bliss? Gordon, SlowGeezer and myself in this thread alone to name a few.
At the end of the day as it has been said over and over, the choice is the OPs and it's all completely subjective. But throwing out statements comparing speakers 2x, 3x the price is in my opinion ridiculous. And I had Summits that were handily trounced by Rockport Aviors at RMAF - there is simply no comparison in sound clarity, dynamics and overall reality of music. Again, my opinion - not fact....
Well, since all are opinions, a good starting point will be to listen to the WE, Yamamura, or Bionor before making one to get a different perspective. The others can be heard very easily, and are very similar, an effort needs to be made to listen to these.
