Have we become comfortably numb

Joey_V said:

It's not as easy as just banning weapons or making it more difficult to access.

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Making them more difficult to access also greatly assists.

In your country, by the vast majority of weapons used in mass shootings between 1982 and 2012 have been obtained legally.

And by making guns harder to obtain legally, you also make guns harder to obtain illegally - because every illegal gun started out its life as a legal one.

The thing with Australian gun laws - they're not even that tough. All we have done is restrict access to the guns specifically designed to kill human beings (AK-47s, etc).

As I said earlier - if you don't want to ban guns then fine. But the onus is on you guys to propose an alternative. You can't go on like this.

Gordon Gray said:

I guess the shooter had 13 guns, all bought legally.

Doesn't this give one pause regarding our country's obsession and current policies regarding firearms?

PS: Why would anybody need 13 guns? Can someone please answer that question?

I just don't get it.

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Gordon people ask me all the time why would I need 10 different sets of tubes for my amps or people who have watch collections and have 13 watches , or women with 20 pairs of shoes. ?????

Like I said earlier; you are simply quoting mass shootings in your graph.

The majority of gun deaths are not mass shootings.

It still does not explain why gun banning has not helped gun crime in Chicago.

amey01 said:

Making them more difficult to access also greatly assists.

In your country, by the vast majority of weapons used in mass shootings between 1982 and 2012 have been obtained legally.

And by making guns harder to obtain legally, you also make guns harder to obtain illegally - because every illegal gun started out its life as a legal one.

The thing with Australian gun laws - they're not even that tough. All we have done is restrict access to the guns specifically designed to kill human beings (AK-47s, etc).

As I said earlier - if you don't want to ban guns then fine. But the onus is on you guys to propose an alternative. You can't go on like this.

View attachment 18212

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I want you to show me gun control has decreased gun crime in Australia. Looking through data on the internet suggests otherwise.

amey01 said:

Making them more difficult to access also greatly assists.

In your country, by the vast majority of weapons used in mass shootings between 1982 and 2012 have been obtained legally.

And by making guns harder to obtain legally, you also make guns harder to obtain illegally - because every illegal gun started out its life as a legal one.

The thing with Australian gun laws - they're not even that tough. All we have done is restrict access to the guns specifically designed to kill human beings (AK-47s, etc).

As I said earlier - if you don't want to ban guns then fine. But the onus is on you guys to propose an alternative. You can't go on like this.

View attachment 18212

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That's a pretty sweeping statement. I want you to give me facts to back up your statement that every developed country has shown that gun control has worked.

I also want you to look into Finland and Switzerland.

Also, let me know how Mexico has tough gun control but crime remains very high.

amey01 said:

In every other civilised country in the world, banning has worked.

So unless the USA can propose another (equally effective) measure, you guys have to do something.

Or just do nothing and the rest of the world can sit in awe as we watch news reports of mass shooting after mass shooting - month after month.

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http://crimepreventionresearchcenter.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/OECD-and-Small-Arms-Survey.png

Explain your sweeping statement Amey.

repman said:

Gordon people ask me all the time why would I need 10 different sets of tubes for my amps or people who have watch collections and have 13 watches , or women with 20 pairs of shoes. ?????

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The obvious response my friend. Tubes, watches, and shoes are not designed to kill people.

Joey_V said:

That's a pretty sweeping statement. I want you to give me facts to back up your statement that every developed country has shown that gun control has worked.

I also want you to look into Finland and Switzerland.

Also, let me know how Mexico has tough gun control but crime remains very high.

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I have a friend who lives in Switzerland and while anyone can purchase a gun, successfully completed training is mandatory. More importantly all the ammunition is very closely controlled by the government. If you go to a firing range you are issued bullets and any ordinance not fired is not allowed to leave the premises.

Mexico is lawless in many regions where the drug lords and corruption don't allow for enforcement. Without enforcement any laws on the books are useless.

Joey_V said:

It still does not explain why gun banning has not helped gun crime in Chicago.

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It is the UNITED States.

Banning guns in Chicago doesn't stop you buying one in New Orleans and driving to Chicago in a few hours.

Joey_V said:

http://crimepreventionresearchcenter.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/OECD-and-Small-Arms-Survey.png

Explain your sweeping statement Amey.

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Have a look here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

Sort by "Total" or "Homicides" if you like.

And here's some pictures Joey if the wards are too busy to read tables:

Note it is not singling out Chicago or any other city. The problem exists in the USA. Why? And how do you propose you fix it?

And if you are still not with me, then when it's all said and done - let's say gun control DOES NOT work.

Regardless, you've still clearly got a unique problem over there. What's the problem? And what are you going to do about it? And why is this problem being experienced in the USA, but not any other developed / OECD country?

amey01 said:

And if you are still not with me, then when it's all said and done - let's say gun control DOES NOT work.

Regardless, you've still clearly got a unique problem over there. What's the problem? And what are you going to do about it? And why is this problem being experienced in the USA, but not any other developed / OECD country?

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amey01 as to your 1st statement: gun control does not and never will work.

your 1st Q: we don't know really
your 2nd Q: we don't know at this time
your 3rd Q: who can say, it will spread to other developed nations very soon though...

If everyone was a decent human being like most of us here on the forums, we would not be discussing this however, that is not the case out in the big bad world we live in.

Joey_V said:

I want you to show me gun control has decreased gun crime in Australia. Looking through data on the internet suggests otherwise.

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You couldn't find this?

Also worth noting - this is raw data. The population has been increasing during this time, so a per-capita graph would show an even more marked reduction.

stuwee said:

.......

And wasn't one of the most horrific mass murders by a single gunman on a small island in Europe, 70+ killed?

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While that number is certainly horrific, it was ONE incident. It does not happen with the grim regularity that it does in the US.

stuwee said:

amey01 as to your 1st statement: gun control does not and never will work.

your 1st Q: we don't know really
your 2nd Q: we don't know at this time
your 3rd Q: who can say, it will spread to other developed nations very soon though...

If everyone was a decent human being like most of us here on the forums, we would not be discussing this however, that is not the case out in the big bad world we live in.

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Spread to other developed nations? I doubt it. As far as I can recall, Canada has had only two such incidents.

Gordon Gray said:

So we need more guns?

I think there's approximately 300,000,000 or so already in our country.

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Gordon, this thread reminds me of a 70s show where one guy's solution to aircraft highjacking was to arm everyone as they boarded the aircraft.

RCHeliGuy said:

I have a friend who lives in Switzerland and while anyone can purchase a gun, successfully completed training is mandatory. More importantly all the ammunition is very closely controlled by the government. If you go to a firing range you are issued bullets and any ordinance not fired is not allowed to leave the premises.

Mexico is lawless in many regions where the drug lords and corruption don't allow for enforcement. Without enforcement any laws on the books are useless.

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And I'm sure no one in Switzerland owns bullets? Swiss has high gun ownership and low crime rates. So while that could be just a simple correlation, you can't refute it otherwise.

And Amey's comment regarding ALL developed nations having a gun ban has successfully implemented it and caused a drop in crime, Mexico, for all intents and purposes is a developed nation. What does it say if gun control has not curbed crime? Then the issue is NOT with gun control but in something else.

And that's the premise of this debate... that gun control in it of itself is not the main issue.

People in Switzerland can not purchase ammunition, period.
The 2000 militia who are each issued 50 rounds, have those rounds inventoried regularly.
If you want to fire your gun, you have to go to a firing range.

•Nearly every male in Switzerland goes through firearm training at the age of 20.
•Swiss males are allowed to keep their firearms after the end of their military service at age 30. The fully automatic weapons must be converted to semi automatic before they can keep them as civilians.
•Switzerland has universal gun registration on gun ownership.
•Switzerland has universal background checks on all gun purchases.
•Switzerland requires universal reporting of firearm transactions, whether commercial or private transfer of ownership.
•Switzerland's carry laws are highly regulated and very restricted. Other than militia members transporting their firearms on their way to militia training, very few people are allowed to actually carry firearms. And they cannot be loaded.
•Despite the militia requirement in Switzerland, the rate of gun ownership (by percentage) in the United States is much higher than in Switzerland.
•Males between 20 and 30 years of age are required to own firearms in Switzerland because they are the nation's well regulated milita. Switzerland has no standing army. It is their civilian militia (much like the intent of the American 2nd amendment) that defends their nation against foreign aggression.
•The vast majority of militia members are not even allowed to store ammo at home. And for the 2000 or so--that's right only 2000--militia members who do have ammo, it is sealed and inspected regularly.


FYI, here is some proof that gun laws even work in the US.

http://www.nationaljournal.com/s/53345/states-with-most-gun-laws-see-fewest-gun-related-deaths

amey01 said:

Have a look here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

Sort by "Total" or "Homicides" if you like.

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And what's your point? Youre looking at a small data point being penetrating/gun related deaths.

Data can be twisted into anything you would like to see.

How about homicide rate after a gun ban? Case in point?