Have we become comfortably numb

There it is Larry,

There is no connection between the 300,000,000 guns in the country and the number of mass killings of innocent people in the USA, which far exceeds any other civilized country in the world.

We obviously need more guns.

Please keep posting "we don't have a gun problem" information.

How do you say "denial" to such basic facts?

Gordon

Gordon Gray said:

There it is Larry,

There is no connection between the 300,000,000 guns in the country and the number of mass killings of innocent people in the USA, which far exceeds any other civilized country in the world.

We obviously need more guns.

Please keep posting "we don't have a gun problem" information.

How do you say "denial" to such basic facts?

Gordon

Click to expand...

Agree Gordon!

With 300 million guns already in circulation, you'd think the USA would be the safest place in the world!!!

Woops. What happened?

Nothing like somone making your argument for you.......

OK I'm going to make one more comment. Gordon I respect your beliefs and opinions but I think you have missed the point. What this data points out is that banning guns does not equal less crime or a safer environment but shows the exact opposite.

The question you both seem to be asking is why the United States has had an issue with maniacs and mass killings of innocent people. I say that is not a gun problem but an issue with our society that somehow produces these homicidal individuals.

Tim McVeigh killed far more people at one time with FERTILIZER , the twin towers were brought down with over 3000 people killed with box cutters and aircraft, Hitler with gas chambers!!!!

You can blame guns for this as I said before but the real issue is one of hatred, mental illness, dysfunctional individuals bent on killing by whatever means they choose. NOT GUNS!!!

If you want to change the subject to what produces such hatred and motivation to commit these heinous acts I think that is the real issue to discuss. But nobody wants to address THAT its far easier to blame guns and gun ownership as the root cause.

I think the data I offered here is proof that mass killings aside there is proof that gun ownership actually reduces everyday crime , I live in a city that proves it out everyday.



Myth: The United States has the highest violence rate because of lax gun control

GUNS IN OTHER COUNTRIES - Homicide Rates for Top Ten Countries Plus United StatesFact: The top 100 countries for homicide do not include the U.S. 43 The top ten countries all have near or total firearm bans.

Myth: The U.S. has the highest rate of firearm deaths among 25 high-income countries

Fact: 60% of American “gun deaths” are suicides 44 and the U.S. has a suicide rate 11% higher 45 than international averages. This accounts for most of the difference.

Fact: The U.S. has a violent crime rate lower than 12 of seventeen industrialized countries 46 due in large part to the 2.5 million annual defense gun uses. 47



















Myth: Gun control in Australia is curbing crime

GUNS IN OTHER COUNTRIES - Australian Homicides before and after Port Arthur Masacre and Gun Ban BuybackFact: Homicides were falling before the Australian firearm ban, matching a global downward trend in most industrialized countries. However, non-firearm homicides are relatively stable in Australia.

Fact: Crime has been rising since enacting a sweeping ban on private gun ownership. In the first two years after Australian gun-owners were forced to surrender 640,381 personal firearms, government statistics showed a dramatic increase in criminal activity. 33 In 2001-2002, homicides were up another 20%. 34

From the inception of firearm confiscation to March 27, 2000, the numbers are:
•Firearm-related murders were up 19%
•Armed robberies were up 69%
•Home invasions were up 21%

The sad part is that in the 15 years before the national gun confiscation:
•Firearm-related homicides dropped nearly 66%
•Firearm-related deaths fell 50%

Fact: Gun crimes have been rising throughout Australia since guns were banned. In Sydney alone, robbery rates with guns rose 160% in 2001, more than in the previous year. 35

Repman, I'm sorry, but the data you provided has flaws. I did some very quick internet checks and found errors. In fact, Australian gun control has worked. Though the numbers of homicides in Australia was reduced, because there were so few anyway, it is basically statistically irrelevant, just as posting there was an increase is statistically irrelevant. What is relevant is that the number of suicides dropped 75%! Is preventing suicide enough of a reason to try to come to grips with our obsession with guns? Myself, I believe that a lot of the mass killings we have are suicides, anyway. They just want to take a bunch of people with them. Guns allow that. Most don't take the time to put together bombs. I do agree with you that hatred, mental illness, dysfunctional individuals are the ones doing the killing, but guns are the great enabler. Very few seem to take the bomb route. Why not talk about a way to reduce accessibility to the enabler? If, as you say, they would just find another way, why haven't the suicide rates in Australia gone back up to where they were before the gun restrictions? Guns make it too easy.

As to your "fact" of "the myth of the 90%", the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) has repeatedly said, "these guns are most commonly traced from organized crime scenes south of the border back to a U.S. point of origin, even if some were legally imported to the United States before being sold by a weapons dealer and then smuggled into Mexico." Your source comes from a known "FOX news" personality. A well known right wing propaganda organization who has repeatedly shown that they don't care about the truth, but only their view. I think I'd take the word of the ATF over the extremely biased right wing reporting of FOX, any day.

I should also point out, that those are the only two of your "facts" that I have even researched at all and only briefly, at that. I suspect I'd find the other "facts" just as false.

Steve, I had to laugh at your statement of taking the word of the BATF over Fox News .............. Did you forget the Fast and Furious debacle ?.......... Regardless both sides 'manufacture' IMO

slowGEEZR said:

Repman, I'm sorry, but the data you provided has flaws. I did some very quick internet checks and found errors. In fact, Australian gun control has worked. Though the numbers of homicides in Australia was reduced, because there were so few anyway, it is basically statistically irrelevant, just as posting there was an increase is statistically irrelevant. What is relevant is that the number of suicides dropped 75%! Is preventing suicide enough of a reason to try to come to grips with our obsession with guns? Myself, I believe that a lot of the mass killings we have are suicides, anyway. They just want to take a bunch of people with them. Guns allow that. Most don't take the time to put together bombs. I do agree with you that hatred, mental illness, dysfunctional individuals are the ones doing the killing, but guns are the great enabler. Very few seem to take the bomb route. Why not talk about a way to reduce accessibility to the enabler? If, as you say, they would just find another way, why haven't the suicide rates in Australia gone back up to where they were before the gun restrictions? Guns make it too easy.

As to your "fact" of "the myth of the 90%", the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) has repeatedly said, "these guns are most commonly traced from organized crime scenes south of the border back to a U.S. point of origin, even if some were legally imported to the United States before being sold by a weapons dealer and then smuggled into Mexico." Your source comes from a known "FOX news" personality. A well known right wing propaganda organization who has repeatedly shown that they don't care about the truth, but only their view. I think I'd take the word of the ATF over the extremely biased right wing reporting of FOX, any day.

I should also point out, that those are the only two of your "facts" that I have even researched at all and only briefly, at that. I suspect I'd find the other "facts" just as false.

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Steve , I give up on useless debate, the Harvard study is incorrect ?? Not what I would consider a bastion of conservatism . You

did some internet checks and found errors I got it off the internet so maybe the internet itself has errors , guess your internet is smarter than mine LMAO or perhaps all of these facts can be manipulated to fit your viewpoint.

That's why I say its a issue of individuals who have the intent to harm others by whatever means. Bombs,planes, knives, guns, ect ect .

I think I am really done now :clap: I am grateful for the 2nd amendment and the right we have to bear arms. I as a proud gun owner appreciate the fact that the founders of our country were wise enough to entitle its citizens the right to protect our families and homes.

repman said:

Steve , I give up on useless debate, the Harvard study is incorrect ?? Not what I would consider a bastion of conservatism . You

did some internet checks and found errors I got it off the internet so maybe the internet itself has errors , guess your internet is smarter than mine LMAO or perhaps all of these facts can be manipulated to fit your viewpoint.

That's why I say its a issue of individuals who have the intent to harm others by whatever means. Bombs,planes, knives, guns, ect ect .

I think I am really done now :clap: I am grateful for the 2nd amendment and the right we have to bear arms. I as a proud gun owner appreciate the fact that the founders of our country were wise enough to entitle its citizens the right to protect our families and homes.

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I totally agree that where we get our information has to be always circumspect and viewed with a skeptical eye. It is sometimes very difficult to identify who is altering the facts and who isn't. I am sure this happens on both sides of the argument. The best one can do is apply reason and logic and research, research, research, but who has that will power and time? I am not for taking away all of our guns, but really the only reason to have an assault rifle is to kill people. The old argument that one can kill with a deer rifle is a true statement, but there is no way it is as easy to kill many people as with a semi-automatic or full-automatic weapon. Again, it is an enabling type of thing. Why are "police killer" rounds being sold? Their purpose is to penetrate body armor and kill. Why sell them? We all know it is because of profit and these types of bullets are another enabler. Like Dave, I have owned guns for over 50 years and I haven't killed anyone. However, I realize that we do have a serious gun problem in this country. I am not foolish enough to believe that just because my guns are locked in a safe, that they can't be stolen and used for crime. I also realize that accidents happen, even to the best of us. A friend of mine recently shot himself in the hand, while dismantling a handgun. He has been doing this for well over 50 years and just made one mistake. By pure luck, no one else was hit by that bullet. Is that a good reason to ban handguns? Of course not, accidents can happen in almost anything we do. But, is that a reason to try to understand why that happened? Was the gun design bad? In this instance, the handgun required a trigger pull in order to release the barrel for cleaning. Maybe that should be looked at and possibly be altered? Our gun culture has become radicalized, as evidenced by the insane rhetoric from the NRA and the insane rhetoric from the extreme right wing. Put guns in students' hands in the universities? Ridiculous and irresponsible. Yet, that is what the backwards right wing state of Texas is doing. It doesn't take a brainiac to realize that will create many opportunities for disaster. Likewise, it should be obvious that allowing millions of guns out there is going to enable those that fall through the cracks to kill. Guns are the enabler.

twich54 said:

Steve, I had to laugh at your statement of taking the word of the BATF over Fox News .............. Did you forget the Fast and Furious debacle ?.......... Regardless both sides 'manufacture' IMO

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I'm sure. But, FOX is a propaganda machine, pure and simple. Frankly, I don't believe a thing they say. Their endless criticisms of anything the left tries to do is, whether good for the country or not, is laughable.

Gentlemen,

I think we are approaching the useful / productive end of this thread.

I've learned some new information but, as I should have expected, this forum, as well as the remainder of this country, cannot even reach a consensus of what the problem is (absent mental illness), let alone how to deal with it.

And the posts have become circular with no one being convinced that their personal beliefs may be in error. So be it.

My personal problem is how to deal with these mass killing incidents. I really don't want to become comfortably numb but it is very difficult to maintain empathy for innocent victims of mass killings (and hoping for actions that can prevent these incidents from reoccurring) recognizing this phenomena will continue unabated in the future.

One has to wonder what horrific event (number of innocent people being killed) will be the tipping point for this country to come together on both sides of the argument and make a sincere, reasonable, sustainable effort to solve this hideous problem.

I thought Sandy Hook was it. Boy was I wrong.

Gordon

PS: And I want to thank everyone who participated for keeping the conversation civil and respectful

repman said:

Myth: Gun control in Australia is curbing crime

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You do realise that guns aren't banned here. We can still have guns and protect our families if that's what we want to do. It's just not a God-given right for any mentally ill lunatic to walk into a shopping centre and walk away with a 200-rounds per minute assault rifle.

It is after all one of the most polarizing of topics. (Guns, Gays, Abortion, Religion)

You will never see someone change their mind on these subjects because of a debate. We aren't wired that way. We immediately become defensive and only believe what supports are existing opinion.

The only time that a person changes their mind is through personal experiences, like having a loved one shot, or having a child or friend come out of the closet, or knowing someone personally who is pregnant under poor circumstances, or being receptive to a change of faith. Equally a home invasion or bad experience with a gay person etc. could influence you the other way.

Mark, I've changed my mind on guns. I used to be "pro gun" and had a lot of them. I've shot thousands and thousands of rounds of ammunition in my life. I still have a few guns, but have come to the realization that we, as a country, have a serious gun problem. There was no direct personal experience that caused this, except for me taking a look at the data and caring about those who have been murdered by people with too easy access to guns. I'm not for taking all guns away from people, but I don't believe the radical position that the NRA has taken. Meaningful discussion, without the absolutism is necessary in order to modify the thinking on both sides. There has to a common ground we can agree upon. There has to be a modification to the way guns are able to be purchased. There has to be a mindset change, for those who own guns, to become more responsible and to be held responsible for their weapons. A mind unwilling to accept change is not a healthy mind.

I would still like to know why the North West territory of Australia has a higher rate of murder than the US? Did they not turn in their guns for some reason? Do Australians not care about the people in that region?

slowGEEZR said:

Mark, I've changed my mind on guns. I used to be "pro gun" and had a lot of them. I've shot thousands and thousands of rounds of ammunition in my life. I still have a few guns, but have come to the realization that we, as a country, have a serious gun problem. There was no direct personal experience that caused this, except for me taking a look at the data and caring about those who have been murdered by people with too easy access to guns. I'm not for taking all guns away from people, but I don't believe the radical position that the NRA has taken. Meaningful discussion, without the absolutism is necessary in order to modify the thinking on both sides. There has to a common ground we can agree upon. There has to be a modification to the way guns are able to be purchased. There has to be a mindset change, for those who own guns, to become more responsible and to be held responsible for their weapons. A mind unwilling to accept change is not a healthy mind.

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The key is that you were looking at the data, which meant that you wanted to find an answer and you had an open mind. You changed your position, no one else did.

You didn't change your position because of a debate with someone else.

Most of the people involved in this thread have a position, are defending it, and are unlikely to be swayed.

slowGEEZR said:

Mark, I've changed my mind on guns. I used to be "pro gun" and had a lot of them. I've shot thousands and thousands of rounds of ammunition in my life. I still have a few guns, but have come to the realization that we, as a country, have a serious gun problem. There was no direct personal experience that caused this, except for me taking a look at the data and caring about those who have been murdered by people with too easy access to guns. I'm not for taking all guns away from people, but I don't believe the radical position that the NRA has taken. Meaningful discussion, without the absolutism is necessary in order to modify the thinking on both sides. There has to a common ground we can agree upon. There has to be a modification to the way guns are able to be purchased. There has to be a mindset change, for those who own guns, to become more responsible and to be held responsible for their weapons. A mind unwilling to accept change is not a healthy mind.

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Very well said Steve.:bowdown:

And then in the news today is an 11 year-old boy in the US who killed an 8 year-old girl with his father's shotgun. Is this single murder any less horrific than the mass murders?

RCHeliGuy said:

The future is going to be very different than today.

The middle class is gone and is never coming back. This is not because of jobs moving over seas but because of automation. Even if we brought all manufacturing back to the US it would only employ a small percentage of the work force it used to.

We have a huge divide that is only going to increase over time. Our brightest people are being filtered at the collegiate level and are pairing off with each other in college. This is distilling the power, money and intelligence in the country. As a result wealth and power is accumulating in families.

There is a huge unfilled demand for the most intelligent talented people so they will continue to be offered more money and benefits.

Corporations continue to have record profits because they require far less overhead ( employees ) to get work done. In addition the employees who are not part of the elite are worked harder and paid less.

Meanwhile virtual reality is about to happen. Eventually large portions of our population are going to disappear into this artificial universe because they will have a better virtual life than a real life. It will be a cheap opiate for the masses.

Currently the top 7% could float the entire country at a decent middle class wage. This will become the top 6%, top 5% etc..

Automation is projected to cause 25-40% unemployment in the next 20 years.

As a result we will most likely go to a more socialistic order which will tax the rich far more and allow for a living wage to everyone whether they work or not.

Meanwhile we are in the middle of a man made mass extinction and our oceans are breaking down.

The next two decades will see an enormous amount of change and either we will solve a huge number of problems, or the human race will perish and the Earth will start over.

BTW the US desperately needs immigrants to keep growing or our economy will collapse. However Asians will become the largest immigrant population over time which may actually be a good thing for us.

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Enjoyed reading your future forecast though it is a bleak future that you envisage. Much amp headroom or human imagination needed for such a forecast.:bowdown:

Kevin said:

I would still like to know why the North West territory of Australia has a higher rate of murder than the US? Did they not turn in their guns for some reason? Do Australians not care about the people in that region?

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Every country in the world has pockets of high crime.

But hey, if you compare the highest crime pocket of Australia with the lowest crime area of the USA then it might be a good argument for you to "prove" more guns = less crime.

2 more campus shootings today, one in my home state of Arizona, still I say no gun control folks! Let's boost the mental health system!! I work in a big chain supermarket, I see people getting $900 US, $1,200 US and more in food stamps a month...Who the F needs that kind of assistance? No one I say!! That money could be spent on helping sick folks get some help, close the borders.

stuwee said:

2 more campus shootings today, one in my home state of Arizona, still I say no gun control

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Yes.......the rest of the world has heard and the rest of the world has just about given up on you lot! We can't believe it.

Noone's saying ban guns guys.

Just like cars kill people in the yearly road toll - nobody says "ban cars". You just implement a sensible regime to ensure that only apporpriate people are driving (licensing); and to ensure that the cars on the road are reasonable and sensible (design rules for example), which prohibit you driving a F1 Ferrari at 420km/h down the local residential street.

Any old fcuker can't just go and drive a F1 Ferrari at 400km/h down the freeway. And rightly so.

Sure, there are criminals, and those criminals do criminal things - but at the end of the day it's about basic common sense. And for the most part, that works to keep the roads safer than they otherwise would be.

Do criminals on the road kill innocent people? Of course they do!! But does that mean road rules are futile? Of course not. Only a fool would even contemplate that. Surely you can see the parallel with guns?

We certainly don't say "cars don't kill - people do" so "to hell with any road regulation", do we?