Subjective vs. Objective

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Just a thought.

This is so typical and the back and forth banter so predictable regarding this topic, which is probably why it should be banned from this and any other audio forum.

To the contrary. Clearly - many members are enjoying the discussion.

It's respectful, engaging and thought-provoking; thereby challenging the prejudices of members (me included).

So why suggest it should be closed, or worse - banned?

If you don't like it, don't read; least not post.

There are plenty of threads here that I don't read because I find them boring. A thread with 401 replies about someone's choice of CD player would have to be high up there.
 
I'm sorry. I need to bid my farewell before I offend someone.

Thank you to everyone who has offered me help! I sincerely appreciate it. I don't believe I can be a good denizen of this forum so I am going to censor myself.

That's quite a melodramatic reply to "So which usb cables have you experimented with, and on what dac?"
 
It has been my experience that the vast majority of audiophiles base their opinions on invalid subjective testing that is fraught with error and which leads to them making false assumptions about the causes of what they hear that differentiates tested components.

Basic protocols, such as level matching devices under test or ensuring testing is conducted blind and in a timely fashion, are rarely, if ever, implemented by audiophiles. Ask yourself .... is this you? The reality is that, sadly, only a select few audio journalists, reviewers and retailers bother to follow such basic protocol either. And they opine on audio matters negatively influencing readers and buyers in the process.

Heck, we can’t even reach consensus on definitions for the host of subjective terms that are bandied about in this industry.

There really is nothing quite like seeing audiophiles, retailers and reviewers using words with different meanings to describe differences they hear in components that haven’t been properly subjectively tested.

If that’s not enough ……. given that not one of us has, in place, even the most basic comparative fundamentals of (identical systems, setup in the same room, with the same music being played at the same volume levels) any subjective comparison on what any us can or can't hear, even if subjectively tested properly as per above, lacks a true reference and is nothing more than an exercise in futility.

So, what is the answer?

In the absence of such reference I think doing a valid ABX * test, or even a null test, at least brings some commonality to the testing process in an attempt to eliminate the issues above and bring into the fold some element of objectivity which can be referenced by everyone. Even if these processes, themselves, have some issues (and they do) …. surely they are a vast improvement over the highly ineffective subjective processes noted above?

Better yet is to do objective measurements. Yeah, this isn’t for everyone but should it not be? If only to avoid the subjective mess spoken about above! I mean, we all spend oodles of time talking amongst ourselves, in audio clubs and in forums such as these, all in an attempt to find out all we can about gear that we may one day wish to buy. Once content with what we have been told, we spend thousands, many tens of thousands of dollars even, going out there and buying such gear (hopefully not based on the subjective mess spoken about above). Yet barely any of us thinks it wise to spend some portion of our audio $ and buy measurement gear and, if needed, take the time, energy and effort to learn how to measure what it is that we are, or are not, hearing so that the purchases we make are sensible. This is one of the many things that boggles my mind about many of us audiophiles.

As an added bonus. What objective measurement can allow for is … very accurate analysis of what distortions and/or frequency response may be responsible for the subjective preference(s) you may enjoy, or even detest. You could then administer a process which allows you to include components which output these preferred errors so that you are listening to the distortion/response errors that your ears prefer.

Anyhow, for me it boils down to this:

1. All devices under test that objectively perform with measured errors in distortion, noise and frequency response that are below human hearing threshold ** will sound identical to any listener who does a valid listening test.

2. If devices under test are shown to sound different (in a valid listening test) then such sound differences can clearly be demonstrated by using instruments which allow for taking proper objective measurements so that you can visually analyze the results.

* For clarity sake my proper ABX test of electronics is one that is done blind using my switchbox which allows instantaneous switching between compared devices that are level matched to around 0.1 dB.

** There are numerous references to the finite hearing ability of humans insofar as hearing limits. Giving human hearing the benefit of the doubt .... the consensus is that human hearing threshold is as follows:

• Distortions (individual harmonic, alias, modulation, & crosstalk) all below –90 dBFS with their total sum below –80 dBFS (0.01%)
• All noises below –110 dB with total sum below –100 dBFS
• All jitters below –110 dB with total sum below -100 dBFS
• All over a linear fr (20Hz – 19 kHz within +/- 0.1 dB)

Obviously, I am presumptuous and believe that current measurement processes and instruments can measure all things that determine sound quality ***. I freely acknowledge the possibility that components and elements of psychoacoustics (a study of science I have only cursory knowledge of) may well alter & impact hearing in ways that the above criteria can’t explain but, in the absence of science, or even 1 measly controlled listening proof, that refutes the limits, I am certainly not in a position to question it. Not when the overwhelming evidence supports that there is no demonstrated audible difference that isn’t measurable. Could there come a time when this could change? Sure, but that's more a philosophical question which could be debated till the cows come home.

*** applicable only to voltages of electronic devices (none clipping amps, CDPs, DACs, etc) and not so of transducers since speakers output sound waves which can’t be accurately measured in a room.

Stated another way:

• If I can hear it, and measurements suggest I shouldn’t be able to hear it, then I believe that what I hear may be real or imaginary but I side with imaginary and wonder if I should go see my shrink.
• If I can hear it, and measurements agree that I should be able to hear it, then I believe that what I hear is real and I grab another drink.
• If I can't hear it, and measurements suggest I should be able to hear it, then I change up my system.
• If I can't hear it, and measurements suggest I shouldn’t be able to hear it, then I grab another drink.

Cheers ....................

High five.
 
To the contrary. Clearly - many members are enjoying the discussion.

I hope so and you folks enjoy.

My comment was, for better or worse, influenced by the numerous S and O threads on the WBF forum, which "always" resulted in acrimony / personal insults and ended up with no consensus and people getting disciplined and / or banned.

I think RC's withdrawal is a good indication of the future fate of this type thread. Hope I'm wrong.

In my mind, we all have biases and are prejudiced and nothing anybody says is going to change the other persons perspective.

Oh well. Have fun.
 
Not when the overwhelming evidence supports that there is no demonstrated audible difference that isn’t measurable.

Adam, just one example. Whose evidence? Who supports?

Classic Ethan Winer stuff.

As I said, have fun.

GG
 
Just a thought.

This is so typical and the back and forth banter so predictable regarding this topic, which is probably why it should be banned from this and any other audio forum.

Gordon, forums such as these are in place to talk abut such things, no? Besides, where does one stop with such proposed bans? Should cable discussion also be banned? How about digital vs analog debate? How about stats vs non stats? Tubes vs SS? Tweaks vs non tweaks? Redbook vs hi res? etc, etc.
 
Adam, just one example. Whose evidence? Who supports?

Classic Ethan Winer stuff.

As I said, have fun.

GG

Ethan Winer? A simple scope/spectrum analyzer test will easily reveal any distortions that are large enough to cause an audible difference in a properly conducted listening test.
 
Gordon, forums such as these are in place to talk abut such things, no? Besides, where does one stop with such proposed bans? Should cable discussion also be banned? How about digital vs analog debate? How about stats vs non stats? Tubes vs SS? Tweaks vs non tweaks? Redbook vs hi res? etc, etc.

Hi Pneumonic,

It is theoretically a good place but I've seen numerous instances where the O / S threads disintegrate / blow up and end up with the proverbial "Thread Closed" despite peoples best intentions.

And the answer is no to your other topics.

However, and for some reason, this one is particularly toxic. As I said, I hope I am wrong.

Just my opinion.

Best,

Gordon
 
Gordon, forums such as these are in place to talk abut such things, no? Besides, where does one stop with such proposed bans? Should cable discussion also be banned? How about digital vs analog debate? How about stats vs non stats? Tubes vs SS? Tweaks vs non tweaks? Redbook vs hi res? etc, etc.

I am quite ok with people 'discussing', 'debating' and exchanging ideas. I really don't much see the point of a rinse and repeat signature that effectively says "I have not tried XYZ but know for sure it doesn't work because I studied Engineering and just managed to get by in a no-name college, never made my millions which is why I cannot get close to affording the Neolith, yet I know for sure XYZ doesn't work because my half-successful attempt at Engineering made me smarter than all of you who are, shall we say, suckers?" That, frankly, kills any discussion debate or exchange of ideas. That's why I like WBF forum, because despite some trash, there is a lot of exchange of ideas.
 
I am quite ok with people 'discussing', 'debating' and exchanging ideas. I really don't much see the point of a rinse and repeat signature that effectively says "I have not tried XYZ but know for sure it doesn't work because I studied Engineering and just managed to get by in a no-name college, never made my millions which is why I cannot get close to affording the Neolith, yet I know for sure XYZ doesn't work because my half-successful attempt at Engineering made me smarter than all of you who are, shall we say, suckers?" That, frankly, kills any discussion debate or exchange of ideas.
That's a helluva strawman, Kedar. I don't need to try a new car radio to know that it won't make my car any faster, even if I may think it does, and there are plenty of PhD'd engineers with real, applicable-to-the-audio-world degrees whose experience and observations have real substance.

Having said this and as Gordon says, these kinds of debates have a knack for quickly becoming toxic, even with folks who start with the best intentions. Everyone, right or wrong or who knows? seemingly has to have the last word in an effort to convert or eradicate those who enjoy what is only a hobby in a way different than their own. I've seen that movie a zillion times.
 
That's a helluva strawman, Kedar. I don't need to try a new car radio to know that it won't make my car any faster, even if I may think it does, and there are plenty of PhD'd engineers with real, applicable-to-the-audio-world degrees whose experience and observations have real substance.

Having said this and as Gordon says, these kinds of debates have a knack for quickly becoming toxic, even with folks who start with the best intentions. Everyone, right or wrong or who knows? seemingly has to have the last word in an effort to convert or eradicate those who enjoy what is only a hobby in a way different than their own. I've seen that movie a zillion times.

Yes, but all "This doesn't work" comments seem strawman too. And they are rinse and repeat, sorry. The guys who try don't say they know what's right. Look at the threads - Is cable A good, I thought it made a difference, are there any better cables out there? Clearly means the guy is asking or exploring. Please don't shut him down
 
Yes, but all "This doesn't work" comments seem strawman too.
Sometimes we need to reflect on the possibility that how things seem and how they are may be two very different things. Or not, and continue believing what we choose to believe. As I said, it's only a hobby and how folks choose to pursue it is entirely up to them. I might occasionally try to educate or even kid someone about what they're doing, but I try my best to do it in good humor and without being a relentless PITA.
 
Yes, but all "This doesn't work" comments seem strawman too. And they are rinse and repeat, sorry. The guys who try don't say they know what's right. Look at the threads - Is cable A good, I thought it made a difference, are there any better cables out there? Clearly means the guy is asking or exploring. Please don't shut him down

On a forum - why should someone be presented with only half the ideas?

There might be some opinions that cable A is indeed best
There might be some opinions that cable B is better
There might be some opinions that none make one iota of difference

The end decision is with the person who asked.
 
On a forum - why should someone be presented with only half the ideas?

There might be some opinions that cable A is indeed best
There might be some opinions that cable B is better
There might be some opinions that none make one iota of difference

The end decision is with the person who asked.

Yes, so the end decision should come from the person after listening to A vs B. If it doesn't make a difference, fine.
 
On a forum - why should someone be presented with only half the ideas?

There might be some opinions that cable A is indeed best
There might be some opinions that cable B is better
There might be some opinions that none make one iota of difference

The end decision is with the person who asked.

Again, I never said give him an opinion. Encourage him to find out for himself. Tell him what worked for you, what worked for RUR, etc, and let him find out what works for him. If one didn't try it, to say it doesn't work because one understands all of physics and audio is frankly what cuts the discussion short
 
Hi everyone

It might seem all USB cables are made the same yet thats not the case. The amorphous dilectric effect creates linear losses throughout the digital domain. These can only be contained.

C
 
I'm sorry. I need to bid my farewell before I offend someone.

Mark,

IMHO, no need to withdraw. You didn't do anything wrong or inappropriate and this is fairly typical banter in audio forums. Actually, from my experience, we are quite polite and self policing compared to many other forums.

You've got some great technical background and experience that would be most beneficial to most if not all of us.

Please reconsider.

Best,

Gordon
 
Hi everyone

It might seem all USB cables are made the same yet thats not the case. The amorphous dilectric effect creates linear losses throughout the digital domain. These can only be contained.

C

Would you like to explain?

What are "linear losses"?

Do these "linear losses" apply to all data, or only data representing music?

Why doesn't my bank account suffer from linear losses?

Or credit card terminals even? (I really wish my $100 purchases would transfer as $50 purchases due to "linear losses", but alas, it's never happened to me :O

Why can I pass data (representing music, or otherwise) all over the internet, from Sweden, to the USA, to Australia - through satellites, submarine cables, wi-fi, ADSL and fibre optic cable - through routers, servers, hard disks, memory, satellite modulators - and keep that information perfect (proven by checksum); yet......;

Why can't I pass that same data down a foot of USB cable to my DAC without needing to contain these strange "linear losses"? Why? .....;

Even though the Bitperfect Test on my DAC tells me it is operating without flaw.
 
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Well at least you didn't take my comment too seriously because I wouldn't :0 I love your comment on bank accounts. My has suffered linear losses from the first time I got into audio!

I won't comment on the Internet and its latency, checksum or no checksum. If you do have a telecom background which you probably do then i think you'll agree comparing a point-point link of a cable to the Internet is quite a stretch from a data perspective.

Enjoy the music.

C
Would you like to explain?

What are "linear losses"?

Do these "linear losses" apply to all data, or only data representing music?

Why doesn't my bank account suffer from linear losses?

Or credit card terminals even? (I really wish my $100 purchases would transfer as $50 purchases due to "linear losses", but alas, it's never happened to me :O

Why can I pass data (representing music, or otherwise) all over the internet, from Sweden, to the USA, to Australia - through satellites, submarine cables, wi-fi, ADSL and fibre optic cable - through routers, servers, hard disks, memory, satellite modulators - and keep that information perfect (proven by checksum); yet......;

Why can't I pass that same data down a foot of USB cable to my DAC without needing to contain these strange "linear losses"? Why? .....;

Even though the Bitperfect Test on my DAC tells me it is operating without flaw.
 
Adam,

Just to clarify and I have no idea / experience with USB cables.

Are you saying all USB cables, regardless of the manufacturer, are all equal or is there anything that makes one better than the other?

I read, while doing some research for a friend, that some wires in the cable are 28 or 30 awg versus 26awg in others. Any performance differences with thicker gage and between copper and silver wire? Also, does length matter?

Best,

Gordon
 

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