Gordon Gray
Well-known member
That's a pretty bold statement IMHO.
streamers vs spinners
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That's a pretty bold statement IMHO.
amey01
Well-known member
Just one correction - it's not a music signal - it's a data signal; and noise on the data signal has about as much impact on the musical result as noise on the data line when you downloaded the file.
That's what perplexes me. If people say you need a gold-plated, oxygen free USB cable between your computer and your DAC, why don't they also say that we need gold-plated, oxygen free Ethernet cables under the ocean so that we can download our music?
But at the end of the day - if the placebo pill cures the headache, so what?
Our DACs buffer and re-clock the data. Or in Roberto's case, his Bel Canto SPDIF converter does. That's not to say that the clocks in these devices don't jitter - but that jitter is wholly independent of the source jitter.
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You are right. People will hear what they want to hear. A USB cable has ZERO, nada, no impact on the data. The music is just data being sent across it, but people will hear what they want to hear.
If we couldn't depend on the data being transferred properly by WiFi, USB, etc.. I couldn't even make a living doing what I do.
The real irony is that an audio data stream isn't even very taxing. The fact is that the audio industry has a large number of companies taking advantage of people because they don't understand the technology. Once you question if something is a weak link, in your mind it IS a weak link. If something looks and feels more expensive it doesn't take much of a leap for your mind to fabricate a new reality.
The effect of cognitive dissonance is INCREDIBLY strong. Your mind will tend to rationalize and defend a belief. Two people can read the same article and if you agree with it you will remember it. If you don't agree with it you will tend to forget it. This is how people hold on to misconceptions despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Let's say that someone asks you for help and you help them. In your mind that person is now a better person. Why? To be worthy of your help of course. Your mind is always trying to find ways to make itself right and justify previous decisions, because admitting you are wrong or made a mistake does not compute.
I would very strongly recommend the following book if you want to understand this better.
"Mistakes Were Made (but not by me)" Carol Tavris and Elliot Aronson
http://www.amazon.com/Mistakes-Were...1-1&keywords=mistakes+were+made+but+not+by+me
Die hard spinner here
I have an Onix CD-2 player that was hot-rodded with beefed up power supply by my tech in WY. Weighing 25lbs it's full of high quality goodies, I think the transport is from MBL?? I know the owner of Onix was a douche who did some horrible things but, they made some very nice stuff in the 1990's. I spin vinyl daily and love the tactile feel of an object. CD's only for this guy.
I've been given some cassettes from a buddy who streams (not sure what he's using) and they sound superb. Before you laugh, I have the TOTL Teac V-8000S deck $1,800 new in 1989, one of the top 5 decks ever made. My buddy records on a Nakamichi one model down from the Dragon using the best metal tape. These decks are capable of making exact copies of CD's or streams.... well with that 'touch' of analog warmth that I love...
Anyway, thanks to streamers I'm able to pick up CD's for next to nothing and I love that!!
I have an Onix CD-2 player that was hot-rodded with beefed up power supply by my tech in WY. Weighing 25lbs it's full of high quality goodies, I think the transport is from MBL?? I know the owner of Onix was a douche who did some horrible things but, they made some very nice stuff in the 1990's. I spin vinyl daily and love the tactile feel of an object. CD's only for this guy.
I've been given some cassettes from a buddy who streams (not sure what he's using) and they sound superb. Before you laugh, I have the TOTL Teac V-8000S deck $1,800 new in 1989, one of the top 5 decks ever made. My buddy records on a Nakamichi one model down from the Dragon using the best metal tape. These decks are capable of making exact copies of CD's or streams.... well with that 'touch' of analog warmth that I love...
Anyway, thanks to streamers I'm able to pick up CD's for next to nothing and I love that!!
amey01
Well-known member
Thanks to streaming, I'm able to pick up files for nothing. I love that more.
Bernard
Well-known member
Every time I read a statement such as the one in bold I can't help but think back to the time I changed the cable between my CDT and DAC and was sitting and listening to music when my non-audiophile wife went by my music room and stopped because something caught her attention. She asked me what I had changed as the system sounded better. She had no idea I had made a change.
amey01
Well-known member
An SPDIF cable will make a difference though because that is clocked data going along that cable. Music if you will. And likely in a time before buffered DACs, right?
Very different to how USB cables operate.
It makes sense that they would buffer the input stream DAC's to eliminate this issue. So I'm assuming that there is a very brief pause when you first start playing so that it can buffer up a split second of data and then effectively run like an asynchronous file with the pico seconds in time clock disparity no longer mattering in the least. That seems like an obvious way to handle this.
This brings up another issue. People experience something once that leaves an impression and even though the technology has advanced to eliminate an issue, the prejudice is there forever more.
Bernard
Well-known member
I have no problem believing you that a USB cable may make absolutely no difference, but at least I am prepared to sit down and listen for myself rather than just being dismissive based upon the technology.
I am skeptical, but when someone like Roberto (whose opinion I respect) says he hears a difference, I am prepared to listen, with an open mind.
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Fair enough. Will you have someone swapping cables so that your evaluation is blind? The main issue is that everyone carries their preconceptions with them and unfortunately if you know what you are testing your mind will try to fit what it hears to your current beliefs.
I've read about blind tests where someone with a system that they have spent years putting together and are extremely proud of and who you would think knew the sound of their system very well had someone bring a lessor amplifier to test. Immediately on listening to the setup the owner started to tear the new amplifier apart calling it lean and not as full bodied etc.. etc.. and then the tester turned off the lessor amp and the music continued playing. This guy had just trashed the system that he spent years putting together. He walked into that room with preconceptions and he altered reality to agree with what he already "knew" to be true.
This is a real problem in all things, not just audio. We will always justify what we believe should be true.
Here is a great case and point.
A marble and gold power strip for $9,000. It looks so beautiful and you just know that the electrons that are passing through it are just happier for the experience.
I love the spiked feet which seem to imply there there is sonic character in this device and that it should be properly coupled to the room. You don't want your electrons to shake around
A marble and gold power strip for $9,000. It looks so beautiful and you just know that the electrons that are passing through it are just happier for the experience.
I love the spiked feet which seem to imply there there is sonic character in this device and that it should be properly coupled to the room. You don't want your electrons to shake around
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Bernard
Well-known member
Ah! But I have no current beliefs. I aim to see if I can hear a difference.
You have stepped into something that has been discussed here at great length - whether double blind testing has any merit. I don't listen to music frantically trying to listen for differences when cables are swapped. Instead, I believe in listening for a while, doing a swap, then listening again.
Do your psychological statements take into account the stress that you are under when evaluating cables under DBT conditions? Personally, I don't care for it.
User211
Well-known member
I agree. Post of the month.
Who said it had to be frantic or stressful ?
Have your wife swap or not swap the cable and keep the cable hidden, and enjoy your music.
Go through maybe 10 iterations of her swapping or not swapping the cables and take notes if you think you heard a difference.
Then check her notes to see which cable was playing when you thought you heard a difference.
Gordon Gray
Well-known member
Sorry RC,
This has been debated so many times in so many forums. You clearly fall into the "objective" camp. That's fine but please refrain from preaching to all of us poor folks that believe hearing (and not measurements, dbt tests, and other data) is the basis for making a determination as to whether something is or is not audible.
Nuff said. Let's try to not start a "food fight".
GG
PS: One Ethan Winer is enough.
Gordon,
I respect that everyone here is an adult who votes with their own wallet and that this is an enjoyable recreational activity.
The only person who will ever agree with me 100% of the time is me and even then I would need to qualify that as at any given time since I'm always learning and my opinions change over time.
What you quoted about cognitive dissonance is a fact that impacts everyone and their current views on just about everything and I am not immune to this. I only hope that by being sensitized to it that I catch myself more often making decisions based on a viewpoint I formed a long time ago without questioning it recently based on any new information I have.
Saying that we are predisposed to defend what we already believe no matter what the subject matter is simply how we operate.
I like to think that we are adults who can have a discussion about a subject matter without it being considered a fight.
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