Windsor Hifi Show Report, without Pictures

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bonzo

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Went to the Windsor show today. This show has the best rooms of the shows I have been to, much better than Munich. Was the same last year.

The Maggie 3.7i sucked. The vocals on them are just so wrong. Else it was the Audio Analogue amplification, which I doubt.

As a background, took along the girl I have been dating. Kind of proves we have reached a stage where I was not afraid of her running away. Anyway, she has been going to classical and rock concerts in London since her teens (and no, she is not a teen anymore, she is just past 30), plays the flute, and has been accompanying me to these various live shows I have been going to (I still remember the first time I brought her home I tried to impress her with Cecilia Bartoli and Mussorgsky on my panels only to later find out she had a wider collection of Bartoli and of different Beethoven versions on Spotify that she listened to on her iPad.

So, since she had no preconceived notions of brands and prices, I took her along. First we went to the room with the giant 100k+ Focals with the Naim amplification. It was my test to see if size mattered to her. She was not impressed, said the reggae and those type songs sounded better than strings and opera.

We then went to the Wilson room. First time I have heard them sounding good (relatively), because it was all valve - all Audio research, with Transparent Opus cabling. Peter Mcgrath of Wilson does a superb presentation, and he has credibility having been a recording engineer for almost 30 years and having recorded many CDs. So when he put in a Debussy piano that had been recorded by him and said this is the best reproduction you will hear, she thought it would be, only to immediately turn to me and say this does not sound like a piano. At that point, I knew I was in love. OKcupid did rate us at a 99% match, and this was why, I guess.

Then we went to the Tune Audio Anima room, a speaker which I like, but had fallen off my radar due to the price and no used sales. Backed by Modwright electronics all the way. I loved it. She thought it was fantastic and liked the looks too (thought Wilsons were ugly). Given my recent orchestra concerts, I have begun to appreciate brass much more, and I have never heard the brass section produced so beautifully and with so much energy. Orchestra, jazz, Pavarotti, and Maria Callas were excellent, so was Louis Armstrong. Then he did a Western Electric and played Whole Lotta Love, and it sounded great. Easily a dream system.

Then we did a round of the Avalons and the Estelons. Avalons are not good on strings. The Estelons do everything well but have an electronic touch and are poor on the piano. But holography, accurate bass, midrange, is all very nice. High WAF too.

Then we went to the Magico room not sure if it was S5 or Q3, with Metronome Kalista and Constellation amps, Opus cabling. The Kalista is just a bit more expensive than the Animas, I think. She liked it, I thought the electronics were really good, the speaker to me sounded the same as the Wilsons.

At the end of this all, I told her the prices. She was shocked at all the prices, of course, but surprised to know that the Animas are not the most expensive.

Moral of the story is, I found all except the Anima extremely weak compared to a Datasat Auro 3d B&W 802D system. For me, at that money, it's a no brainer.

(Somewhere during lunch I told her that another guy (Justin) brings his wife over to hifi shows and she gets a day off at the spa. As soon as I said it, I kicked myself).
 
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Would've gone but heard most of it before and I just couldn't be arsed to drive it.

Best book her a day at the spa. Immediately!:)

For me the Animas need some great valve amps to really shine. Glad you survived the carpet in there. Agree best I have heard Wilson's was with a full ARC setup - but the last time I heard that was probably nearly a couple of decades ago LOL.
 
Curious about the sucky Maggie's. what was it on the vocals? Too big? Curious to room dimension there. Wow- a Maggie at a show that wasn't some type of gimmick. I'm impressed. Maybe at some point they will actually bring the 20.7 along. Jeez.
 
Thanks for the review. I'm also curious about the 3.7i comment...
 
Adam, pics distract from the actual sound. Appearances and prices can be deceptive, more so in hifi.

Regarding 3.7i, Kronos TT going into Audio Analogues pre and power. Bass was good, but sound was plasticky, and vocals were cupped - unnatural. I have heard these type of vocals before on a couple of cheap speakers, or DIY. I have heard Maggie's before, and while the vocals haven't sounded this way, they have always sounded plasticky and cheap to me. Would love to hear the 20s

Timm - don't know the exact room dimensions but fairly sized, with around 5 rows or seating chairs, good space all around. That said, they had placed the speakers closer to the wall, which did surprise me because given the room size I would have pulled them 5 feet out easy. Maybe that was to reinforce the bass, or because the importer actually has a smaller room at his shop, and is just used to do that
 
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Whoa whoa whoa... You mentioned BW 802D (or diamonds) at the end... You own a pair? Reason I ask is because I'm close to buying the 800 diamonds but was looking for verification that they are indeed accurate and great.
 
Whoa whoa whoa... You mentioned BW 802D (or diamonds) at the end... You own a pair? Reason I ask is because I'm close to buying the 800 diamonds but was looking for verification that they are indeed accurate and great.

No no no Joey, in 2-ch I don't like them and think they have too many crossover problems, not sufficient bass for their size, And they eat music taking out too many details. However I heard them on a datasat dirac auro 3d system which ranks as a dream system. Read my thread on Datasat
 
No no no Joey, in 2-ch I don't like them and think they have too many crossover problems, not sufficient bass for their size, And they eat music taking out too many details. However I heard them on a datasat dirac auro 3d system which ranks as a dream system. Read my thread on Datasat

Enlighten me on this data sat.

I agree 802 are anemic on bass, 800 are a different story.

Do you also mean original D or v2 D. V2 D has different crossovers. Well especially the 800.
 
Hi Joey, to understand this you will have to let go of all 2-channel and McH experience you have. The moment you go "I have heard something similar", you will be doing yourself a disservice.

The Datasat RS20i and Trinnov altitude are two high end Mch processors, domestic versions of what are used in the cinemas. Please do not compare these to the normal 5.1 Rotel/Marantz Mch systems.

These processors have a built in dac. If you feed in Music through an Oppo into the Datasat, it upmixes a 2-channel CD into a Mch system. The system I referred to was a 13.4 system, with the front two as 802Ds, and the remaining smaller B&Ws. You can have a 5.1 down on the ground, and then you need ceiling speakers, another 5.1 perhaps. Plus a voice of god speaker, which is another small speaker overhead above where you sit. The processor applies correction and lets you set your curves. What you get is a much more incredible soundstage than a panel can give you, albeit differently - panels push the music out in front of the speaker, while here you get a depth from a stage, and then a concert hall ambience due to the surrounds. Please don't mistake this as a surround system with the batmobile going from left to right ear behind your head. This is just like a 2-ch system, but with more ambience.

The centre gives you more focus, all frequencies are well matched, there is much more separation and clarity due to the room correction, and bass is accurate and excellent. I have no doubt that chorals, full symphony orchestra, and separation in violins and cellos, or in opera, was produced better on this system than a 2-ch system. No 2-ch system I know can reproduce a church organ, this did it brilliantly. The brass section of an orchestra had superb 3d.

You can build a 2-ch 800D system and then add these if you prefer. Buy all speakers used, then your costs will be limited to the processors. The Datasat RS20i is 20k GBP, and the Trinnov Altitude is twice that, I think.

Cons: You will in some cases feel a loss of magic on vocals and such, so it is for you to see which effect is greater. Though if you add an outboard dac to the Datasat or Trinnov, you will be able to get that back.

With your budget, I will seriously look at this. But what you need to do is optimise that budget, channel your esoteric and amp budget into the processor and 2 to 3 multichannel amps. You can save on cabling a lot as compared to channel, or on isolation. I can't be sure, but you could also get a cheaper speaker and get a better effect, i.e. 802Ds instead of 800Ds or the Strads.

You should get on AVSforum and check out some such systems.

Needless to say, native auro/atmos format will sound even better, but there is not music in it right now. And you do have the option of converting to 2D easily. Also, you save money on the preamp.
 
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just one thing I will say on multi channel.....

When I got back into audio ....basically was heavily into it until the age of 26.... got married ... divorced.... got back into it at age 36...... got remarried... and still into it... :) anyway - about 15 years ago... 5.1 was the schizney!! So, instead of going with an awesome 2 channel system - I went with a 5 channel system.... and what I discovered was the magic was lost for me.... Everywhere I looked - there was a speaker emanatiing sound.... The magic of two channel is the sounds that emote from areas in your room that do not contain a speaker.... If I have essentially 15 speakers with 4 subs or whatever.... for me... the magic is lost.... I look left - speaker ... right- speaker ... up - speaker.... down - speaker..... behind me - speaker..... you see what I am saying.... If it floats your boat great - but, from my perspective, I have tried this and have felt a loss of 'magic' so to speak.... Not saying anything negative about what other people like.... just saying what I like... :) and what my experiences have been...
 
The Datasat RS20i is 20k GBP, and the Trinnov Altitude is twice that, I think.
Price is comparable for the same i.e. 16 channel version of the Trinnov Altitude. ~$40K price would be for 16/32 I/O, which doesn't exist as a Datasat configuration due to DSP limitations.
 
just one thing I will say on multi channel.....

When I got back into audio ....basically was heavily into it until the age of 26.... got married ... divorced.... got back into it at age 36...... got remarried... and still into it... :) anyway - about 15 years ago... 5.1 was the schizney!! So, instead of going with an awesome 2 channel system - I went with a 5 channel system.... and what I discovered was the magic was lost for me.... Everywhere I looked - there was a speaker emanatiing sound.... The magic of two channel is the sounds that emote from areas in your room that do not contain a speaker.... If I have essentially 15 speakers with 4 subs or whatever.... for me... the magic is lost.... I look left - speaker ... right- speaker ... up - speaker.... down - speaker..... behind me - speaker..... you see what I am saying.... If it floats your boat great - but, from my perspective, I have tried this and have felt a loss of 'magic' so to speak.... Not saying anything negative about what other people like.... just saying what I like... :) and what my experiences have been...

I agree with Timm, except for the divorce part…………still married to the same woman for soon to be 40 years…….
 
Timm, Dave, that's why I started saying if you use your previous experience you are doing yourself a disservice. I have heard Mch before, and I have heard this exact system in Mch, as a 9.4, without the Auro 3d, and it didn't float my boat. So we are on the same page so far.

Ken, sorry, I thought Trinnov Atmos was only available as 32-ch
 
Timm, Dave, that's why I started saying if you use your previous experience you are doing yourself a disservice. I have heard Mch before, and I have heard this exact system in Mch, as a 9.4, without the Auro 3d, and it didn't float my boat. So we are on the same page so far.

Ken, sorry, I thought Trinnov Atmos was only available as 32-ch

Hmmm will have to get a demo somewhere.
 
One of my neighbors (and my best friend) owns a pair of 802 Diamonds. They're a cherry color and look fabulous. He's running them with McIntosh gear. The sound is incredible with very deep and punchy bass. I would not describe these speakers as anaemic. Compared to the Montis, the 802s offer a little more punch in the bass but maybe not as much extension. I prefer the more open sound of the Montis, but at the end of the day, there's not a lot in it. I would be most happy with a pairt of 802s.
 
Hmmm will have to get a demo somewhere.

Guys, these are very high end Mch processors. Unlike box speakers, or CD players, of which there are many close to each other, for you to have had a good flavor of the product at various price points, in this segment it seems to be two at the top, and then nothing, with Denon/Marantz etc at the bottom. Maybe Meridian, though it does things differently and i don't like Meridian either. Suffice to say until you hear exactly that - a Datasat or Trinnov Auro or Atmos, you won't have had a flavor of what this is about. Right now I have 3 dream systems - a 2-Channel High End panel (like Soundlabs or Analysis Audio (or CLX)), a 2-channel high end horn, or a Auro 3d/Atmos McH. Thing is, with the last one, a minimum cost will be 40-50k GBP (used and all that), but if one likes it, it will beat a 300k 2-ch system. So do check out 2 or 3 of those.
 
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