Looking for honest answers...

... since I figure everyone here is more experienced with Martin Logans than I am. I have a line on some Monti's at a real fair price.

I've always liked them when I've heard them in stores. But, I've never had the chance to really give them a demo with what I primarily listen to. Classic Rock/Blues, and a fair amount of Hard Rock (AC/DC, Metallica, Megadeth, Van Halen etc).

Love the speed of the speakers, but can they really "crunch" through the midrange like I typically like?

Thanks

I'm going to be honest and say that unless you are thinking about Summits, or maybe the new Neolith, probably not. Not to say that Logan's won't play rock, because they will, but they wouldn't be my go to speaker if that type of music were my steady diet and I wanted it to be visceral. I've got CLS's and for me the best descriptors are transparency, image localization and a mid range to die for. Fantastic for Jazz and Classical, same for acoustic music, but if I really want to FEEL my Rage Against the Machine it's through my headphone rig or a buddy's Klipschorns - now those are some fantastic rock speakers. Just my two cents, but you should get someone here who really has one of the models I mentioned above (or Jon Fo who has really chased getting a dynamic ML setup), to weigh in.

I haven't heard the Montis ESL's. I have the ElectroMotion ESL's and I listen to a bit of hard rock and metal and I can say that as long as the recording was well produced it will sound amazing regardless of genre. There's a myth that ML's don't work well with rock but they can and will. I can say for certain that AC/DC - Back in Black, Metallica - The Black Album (the 5.1 mix of this album is great too), Megadeth - Countdown to Extinction, and Van Halen - Van Halen sound phenomenal on my EM ESL's. I would love to hear them on the Montis ESL's!

Regardless which ESL speaker you have, they will never have the "punch" in the mid-range you are looking for. This is the most difficult trade-off for me personally. However, I am growned up with Quad 57, and I can only listen to ESL speakers due to the purity. Everything else sound "looked up" - but no ESL speaker will ever give you "the punch" - regardless budget. Dynamic speakers push air - ESL don't No price tag can ever change the laws of physics.

DEP said:

... since I figure everyone here is more experienced with Martin Logans than I am. I have a line on some Monti's at a real fair price.

I've always liked them when I've heard them in stores. But, I've never had the chance to really give them a demo with what I primarily listen to. Classic Rock/Blues, and a fair amount of Hard Rock (AC/DC, Metallica, Megadeth, Van Halen etc).

Love the speed of the speakers, but can they really "crunch" through the midrange like I typically like?

Thanks

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I listen to a lot of rock and have the Summits. But MLs are good only for the rock where there are powerful vocals (like Led Zep, and for those who like it, Queen (I don't)).

I have heard Metallica and was quite happy with it, but there are some chords and bass you lose out on. If I had to choose purely for rock I would choose a non-ML speaker. Apogees are the best in panels for rock and metal, much more dynamic.

That said, boxes are the best for rock IMO. What I decided was that most good rock being non-audiophile quality, I am going to have a nice panel system for Jazz, classical, and opera, and have a cheap set up like a soundbar or small 5.1 for rock - I don't think think the quality of the system should be higher than the quality of recording being played, because it exposes too much of noise in the recording.

Tough call bonz - there really is a lot of well recorded rock around. Maybe not Led Zep, but I think we both know a system that will make that sound phenomenal anyway

i absolutely love the way ML's represents blues-based rock, including Stones, Led Zep (get them on vinyl - the CDs sound crappy), AC/DC, Beth Hearth, Pink Floyd etc. But that's just my taste. Try them with the music you like prefereably at home, but else in a store where they are set up properly.

Bevensee said:

i absolutely love the way ML's represents blues-based rock, including Stones, Led Zep (get them on vinyl - the CDs sound crappy), AC/DC, Beth Hearth, Pink Floyd etc. But that's just my taste. Try them with the music you like prefereably at home, but else in a store where they are set up properly.

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Led Zep's best is not in Studio, it is live. On studio versions I only listen to Battle of Evermore, and Since I have been Loving you (though the latter I equally prefer the versions from Madison Square 1973 and LA 1972). Of all artists I know, Led Zep and Clapton are much more enjoyable on their live performances. Zep's triple CD How the West Was Won and their Double DVD as well as the Page and Plant No Quarter DVD are far superior to their studio performances. Jimmy Page only riffed in the studio he hardly has any leads, while in live shows his leads are amazing - perfect. Bonzo (not me) became a much better drummer 1975 onwards, in fact he became my favorite Zeppie in those performances.

Also the June 21st 1977 bootleg Listen to this Eddie, which has my favorite Page lead in White Summer, the best of Bonzo at the end of Kashmir, and both were mental in Song remains the same that day. Kashmir, Stairway, Achilles, Whole Lotta Love (22 minutes), No Quarter (25 mins) were all played better live

Th Stairway from How the West Was Won has been an audition track based on which I chose Logans. However while ACDC sounds good, for me if one wants to listen to power chords and drums, non-ML is better

As others have said, keep a mid-fi system for when you want to get down and rock hard with sub-par rock recordings. For anything else, especially recent concerts on Blu Ray, MLs are second to none.

Thanks all. Its funny, I had some of the high end Klipsch (palladiums) and I really liked them until I pushed them and I felt they got too bright (they are incredibly accurate though and NOT honky like the other horns) Super detailed, really a great speaker.

But I sold them to a guy who loved that extra detail. I'm using some OLD klipsch right now and while some of the detail is missing, I like them BETTER on crappy recordings.

So... trying to find that magical dynamic speaker with a lot of detail but not so much they are too bright on the top end. May still look closely at the Monti's, but sounds like I kind of have the answer. I love that mid-range crunch (think ZZ top heavy guitars...)

my son plays heavy rock on our summits , they shake the floor , sound utterly awesome and real . on this I must disagree with my good friend bonzo as I think they are marvellous and I have had many box speakers

I suppose it is pretty subjective, but I play hard rock on my Summits and Ascents and I think it sounds great (assuming a decent recording). I think where this myth sometimes comes from is when people try to drive ESLs with inadequate amplification and then blame it on the speakers when everything breaks down because they tried to crank up some heavy rock. Just because an integrated receiver/amp sounds great when relaxing to Norah Jones doesn't mean it's capable when trying to crank AC/DC up to 11. But as I said, it is also subjective because we all listen for different things with each type of music. Each speaker design has its advantages and its inherent limitations.

With a mere 80 Watts I reckon my Ascent/Descent combo sounded great with rock. Different to box speakers but still pretty great.

Now the Apogee Duetta, which are in my opinion a better all round speaker than any ML hybrid up to and including Summits, do sound a lot more dynamic. But it is a different kind of dynamic to a box speaker. It pushes big surface area but with lower excursion, but massive speed. The speed is effortlessly quick and makes them extremely good with electronic m and other genre too.

For bonz - I reckon Peter's Omegas would sound totally different without the NATs. I say this because my Apogees sound totally different when you shove 5 to 600 Watts up their arses. If you think my pair sounded dynamic with the 211s, you should hear them with some SS gear. It is mind blowing. So much so I can't live with it. Honest. I tried. Really

This Wi-Fi keyboard MUST go, LOL. It is shite. Hence the typos.

The Parasound A21 was the amp that really sounded mind blowing. Rowland 301s and other high power class Ds not really. The Parasound understands the meaning of the word "transient".

So are the CJ premier 8s more laid back or more dynamic than your amps?

bonzo said:

So are the CJ premier 8s more laid back or more dynamic than your amps?

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You tell me I've never heard them and you have. My smaller room will make my system sound more "powerful" for a given wattage, but the Premier 8 does have quite a bit more welly. But he'll need it with that room. The CJs won't be able to perform like the A21 does in terms of power delivery and I am sure transient ability.

DEP said:

... Love the speed of the speakers, but can they really "crunch" through the midrange like I typically like?

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It depends, not just on whether you have decent amplification but more on the actual in-room setup. Any panel speaker is fighting the laws of physics to create decent mid-bass due to rear-wave cancellation at those frequencies. So treating the wall behind the speaker is one way to get it to perform better in that range.

So as to whether the 'crunch' or 'punch' most people like to have in the Rock music is there or not, will depend on model and setup, but in general, if that's your prefered style of music, you might miss the punch of good dynamic speaker system.

I love progressive rock, not just the 70's & 80's classics, but modern masters like Steven Wilson, who thankfully produces his albums in multi channel high-rez media (DVD-A/BluRay). My system showcases just how well high-power, dense rock can play on an ESL setup, when demoed, people can't believe that anything that just played a violin quartet so beautifully and accurately can then blow down the house. But look at my system description here or at my personal site to see just how much gear and effort that takes.

Rich said:

I suppose it is pretty subjective, but I play hard rock on my Summits and Ascents and I think it sounds great (assuming a decent recording). I think where this myth sometimes comes from is when people try to drive ESLs with inadequate amplification and then blame it on the speakers when everything breaks down because they tried to crank up some heavy rock. Just because an integrated receiver/amp sounds great when relaxing to Norah Jones doesn't mean it's capable when trying to crank AC/DC up to 11. But as I said, it is also subjective because we all listen for different things with each type of music. Each speaker design has its advantages and its inherent limitations.

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I'm with rich on this. I have summits, and listen to a lot of very rock. The amp is what will make the diff here. I had trouble with smaller amps I tried before, you need a good strong amp that will keep it all together. Otherwise it all gets muddy and harsh.

Of course, recordings still play a huge part. Need well recorded music, otherwise garbage in garbage out!