Angle?

When and why did M/L starting angling there speakers back? There older Cls, requests and newer CLX's are all perpendicular to the floor. I have recently set them so there are 1 degree from being perpendicular and there is quit a difference. Compared to the 5 degree factory setup. They must of had a good reason! Not quite used to the new angle they seem a lot more revealing don't now if I like that or not I have more listening to do. I have summits!

They started angling them back with the Summit generation, I think to make up for the fact that this and subsequent generations are shorter than previous generations and the sound collapses if you stand up. A lot of us were unhappy with the negative effect on the sound of the rearward rake and fixed it by installing longer spikes on the rear legs. ML took the hint and now offers this ability on the current models.

edit: how could more revealing be bad? Isn't that one of the reasons we bought electrostats in the first place?

Angle

Rich : revealing is not a bad thing but was quite a change when I changed the angle. I just have to get used to the change. Maybe I like the laid back sound better. Time will tell one of the nice things about this hobby if u don't like it then change it back.

khenegar said:

Rich : revealing is not a bad thing but was quite a change when I changed the angle. I just have to get used to the change. Maybe I like the laid back sound better. Time will tell one of the nice things about this hobby if u don't like it then change it back.

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I go back and forth, but generally angle them back when I have guests puttering about, and bring them forward for normal use (sitting down). Having tried both angles for extended periods of time, I definitely prefer the near 90 degree angle to the 85 degree angle. Gordon Gray started a thread about this a few years ago; referring to this as the single greatest free improvement you can make to your system, and I fully agree.

How do you angle them forward, where do you get longer spikes from? I have been meaning to do this - my sweet spot right now is when I sit on top of my sofa's back rest

These guys sell spikes of several different heights:

http://www.oregondv.com/spikes.htm

I don't know the size of the screw thread required.

Edit: Check this out too:

http://www.soundocity.com/problems.html

There is an old thread on this very forum where member JTWrace discusses this issue. He made several sets of spikes for members, including myself. In the thread, he discusses the necessary specs of the spikes. You might want to look up his profile and look through his old threads and you will find the relevant information.

bonzo said:

How do you angle them forward, where do you get longer spikes from? I have been meaning to do this - my sweet spot right now is when I sit on top of my sofa's back rest

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LOL! I remember that well! The only issue I find, is that the panel and woofer are on the same plane, so as I angled the speaker forward, I did notice a reduction in bass. I'm not completely sure, but I think the older MLs had the woofer angled up slightly, so that everything fired at your ear level when sitting down.

bonzo said:

How do you angle them forward, where do you get longer spikes from? I have been meaning to do this - my sweet spot right now is when I sit on top of my sofa's back rest

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Hola Kedar, just unscrew two turns of the back spikes. To know exactly the turns, mark with the aid of a marker, a little dot on each spike. This way, you can make a precise adjustment. You can to, I think, up to 5 turns, and if you need to lean them more, put some coins under each spike and you are done. Your Summits have a special spikes that allow you this kind of adjustment. Happy listening.

Roberto: your suggestion will work if the summits are on hard floors not on thick carpet. The spikes will not penetrate thick carpet. So comes the new summit X spikes which adjust to about any angle u want on thick carpet. Can u tell me why M/L went to angling there new models except the CLXs? The older models were almost if not perpendicular to the floor! Thanks

Because they want the hybrid's woofer ahead of the tweeter as the woofer it's slower and they want both frequencies to reach is at the same time

khenegar said:

Roberto: your suggestion will work if the summits are on hard floors not on thick carpet. The spikes will not penetrate thick carpet. So comes the new summit X spikes which adjust to about any angle u want on thick carpet. Can u tell me why M/L went to angling there new models except the CLXs? The older models were almost if not perpendicular to the floor! Thanks

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Hola Ken...because not everybody have them in the same condition. Also, the setting height might be different too. The soft rug is problematic because the spikes will penetrate it easily. It is cleaver to have a little round or square rug feet protectors. http://www.amazon.com/Shepherd-Hard...50&sr=8-13&keywords=furniture+feet+protectors With $4.00 50cts coins and these protectors, you can set them up in a soft rug with no problem.

bonzo said:

Because they want the hybrid's woofer ahead of the tweeter as the woofer it's slower and they want both frequencies to reach is at the same time

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Kedar, what is meant by "woofer is slower" and "both frequencies"? Keep in mind that the woof/panel distance difference between reclined and upright is a fraction of a millisecond i.e. pretty inconsequential. If we're going to worry over differences this small, we need to go DSP-controlled active, with fine-tuned and verified delays.

bonzo said:

Because they want the hybrid's woofer ahead of the tweeter as the woofer it's slower and they want both frequencies to reach is at the same time

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Kedar, I believe this is incorrect. They made this change with the Summit gen. The Summit is a full half a foot shorter than the Prodigy which preceeded it. By angling the speakers back, the vertical middle of the panel is angled at your ears when you are sitting the appropriate distance away. I believe that is what they were going for. Also, when you stand up, the soundstage doesn't completely collapse. Consider that the Summit and X also have a downward firing woofer, which seems to negate your analysis.

Rich said:

By angling the speakers back, the vertical middle of the panel is angled at your ears when you are sitting the appropriate distance away.

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FWIW Rich, when I adjusted the rake on my Summits to point the vertical center directly at my ears ~9' away, they required a fair bit of rear lift i.e. the stock angle was considerably off. I did this using a try square to ensure perpendicularity to the panel of a laser pointer, aimed at my LP.

Dunno just how close I would need to sit to achieve what you're describing, and the height of the listening seat and how tall the listener are both variables.

Interesting, RUR. And you are totally correct. I went back and did some measurements with my Summits. I have my panels at straight vertical (no tilt) and my ear level is just a few inches above the midline. I sit about 13' away, so there is no wonder the vertical tilt sounds so much better than the aggressive stock angle. This raises the question: what the heck was ML thinking with this design? Is it purely a case of putting form (i.e. WAF) over function? I wish ML would be more transparent over their reasoning for this design. They have never been forthcoming about it, or admitted they made a mistake in the original design, despite adopting the adjustable rear spikes for the Summit X (or giving any credit to JTWrace, who originally came up with that solution).

I think I recall Peter Soderberg mention, in another thread, that the new laid back angle is supposed to increase the vertical sweet spot; such as when people are standing, not just when they're sitting down. He mentioned that it was a compromise, but one that could be mitigated using the spikes to adjust panel angle.

PS: I think I'm going to try spacing the top mount of the panel from the woofer cabinet to get my bass back where it should be.

Roberto: your suggestion is ok if you don't want to make a solid connection thru the carpet with the floor which I feel is very important for the M/L's. I'm sure some will argue that point!

Well, thinking that way, why are you using the spikes in your Summits? Take them off, and you will be making a solid connection with the floor, right? What I am avoiding is that. You do not want to transfer the bass energy to the floor, because it will resonate. If I use the spikes, the only what it is resonating are the Summits cabinets. This allows better bass, less boom boom, and cleaner bass too.

According to the ML setup guide, if you angle the speakers back, it "deepens" the soundstage.

In practice, I think there are two main issues:
1) driver alignment. People who build "regular" cone speakers go thru a lot of trouble to slope the front of the speakers so that the impulse from the woofer arrives at the same time as the tweeter. This affects things like frequency response in the crossover region and the extent of vertical lobing / beaming.

2) How much you want the panels to act like an ideal vertical line source. Given that the panels don't actually shoot out cylindrical waves, but rather a truncated version, what kind of position minimizes these truncation effects or other non-idealities? I happen to think that the panels should be elevated and with the center height aimed at the ears, or even slightly above. That means the panel will be close to vertical. This is a hunch and not a prescription.

Maybe another reason the panels are angled is that so many people put them right up against the wall. In this case, at least the rear reflection doesn't hit the panel all at once.