Bi-wire?

InterMechanico said:

I'm curious what it is that you do for a living? How have you come by all your knowledge?

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I don't talk about my background on the internet. However, I will mention that taking precision measurements and interpreting the results is one of the things I do.

I came by the knowledge the same way everybody else does - by the intake of external information, and then thinking about which parts are reasonable and what parts are not.

I don't know about Ethan's posts on the internet, except that I have known of that name for more than a decade, when he set up a very useful website giving out lots of free and useful information about room modes and bass trapping. I have learned a lot from that.

I know you have no intention debating me on these issue, so why even get worked up?

As for yourself not doing any of those test? As you yourself said earlier:
"What is sad, IMHO, is this approach inherently limits those individuals in their choices (and subsequent performance of their system)"

I feel the same way about your setup. Here you have a chance to undertake steps and measurements that are known and proven to improve sound quality. I know I can't convince you to do it, but I will try to encourage others, and also suggest where their money and efforts are best spent, IMO.

beanbag said:

Here you have a chance to undertake steps and measurements that are known and proven to improve sound quality.

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ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ. Going to bed.

beanbag said:

I don't talk about my background on the internet. However, I will mention that taking precision measurements and interpreting the results is one of the things I do.

I came by the knowledge the same way everybody else does - by the intake of external information, and then thinking about which parts are reasonable and what parts are not.

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The more 'measured and corrected' systems I hear, the more my faith in that drops - all of them so far have sounded real bad (to me). The musical ones (or the ones that I consider musical) are set up by those who are into jazz, opera, classical, live concerts, have been into music and trust their ears. Only one Dirac system I have heard so far (and set up by the guy known to be the best at it in the UK) was a good one. There is one guy on a UK forum who actually believes that it doesn't matter how his system sounds, as long as it measures right. Then the best thing is to buy active and correct speakers

beanbag said:

I don't know about Ethan's posts on the internet, except that I have known of that name for more than a decade, when he set up a very useful website giving out lots of free and useful information about room modes and bass trapping. I have learned a lot from that.

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I suspect a lot of folks have as well !

about your setup. Here you have a chance to undertake steps and measurements that are known and proven to improve sound quality. I know I can't convince you to do it, but I will try to encourage others, and also suggest where their money and efforts are best spent, IMO.

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seems fair enough ................

Good morning Dave,

I would question the validity of measurements within the context of personal choice and biases.

I have said numerous times that I trust my ears. They have served me well for decades and continue to do so.

I don't need measurements to "prove to myself" that my system is performing well. Furthermore, given the omni radiation pattern of the MBL tweeter and midrange pods along with the four side firing mid bass / bass drivers per speaker, I question what the measurements would indicate.

I recently removed the vast majority of room treatments and the system sounds much improved.

If people need measurements to validate what they hear and provides proof that the "in room" frequency response has no major anomalies, that's fine with me but they are only one tool in the kit that one can use to optimize system performance.

Best,

Gordon

Gordon Gray said:

I would question the validity of measurements within the context of personal choice and biases.

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agreed Gordon and with that being said the greater the 'bias' the greater the 'closed mind' !

I have said numerous times that I trust my ears. They have served me well for decades and continue to do so.

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I'm sure they have, but given your likewise 'ole fart' status..... :devil: .... you don't hear as well today as you did thirty years ago !

I don't need measurements to "prove to myself" that my system is performing well.

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that's fine......your ears, your brain has already done that for you and that's Ok .........

Furthermore, given the omni radiation pattern of the MBL tweeter and midrange pods along with the four side firing mid bass / bass drivers per speaker, I question what the measurements would indicate.

I recently removed the vast majority of room treatments and the system sounds much improved.

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understood......but considering the fact that this a 'Martin Logan' forum I'd say it's a safe wager that room treatments do make a sizable improvement to the majority of our systems

If people need measurements to validate what they hear and provides proof that the "in room" frequency response has no major anomalies, that's fine with me but they are only one tool in the kit that one can use to optimize system performance.

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understood but again, 'need and want' are two different things ................if you're smiling and your feet are dancing to the beat, that's all that matters !!

^^ I totally agree. The only purpose of playback system is to provide subjective pleasure.

The need or wish to measure is purely academic or comes from need to identify problem(s) considered disturbing by listening. Now that DSP is easy and cheap to implement, there seems to be a trend to optimize systems for measurements instead of actually improving music reproduction..

bonzo said:

The more 'measured and corrected' systems I hear, the more my faith in that drops - all of them so far have sounded real bad (to me).

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Kedar, of course measurements, themselves, do nothing. Knowing what to do with them is what it's all about.

The musical ones (or the ones that I consider musical) are set up by those who are into jazz, opera, classical, live concerts, have been into music and trust their ears.

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Sure, and the two - measurements and subjective enjoyment - aren't mutually exclusive. The US distributor for my preamp lives right down the road and has 40+ years of experience in live sound reproduction. When he's done setting up a system, it's all about how it sounds - measurements are just a tool to point the way.

Only one Dirac system I have heard so far (and set up by the guy known to be the best at it in the UK) was a good one.

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Once again, poor setup = poor SQ. With tools as complex and flexible as Dirac or Trinnov etc., it pays to find someone who actually knows what they're doing, or to learn how to perform a proper setup, oneself. It ain't just pushing buttons....

Yes Ken, my point is, only one system I heard was done by a guy who knew what he was about. Incidentally he had also done a wisdom Audio set up which was my favorite room at an HiFi show.

But then the best systems I have liked, have been brilliant horns or planars in normal living rooms. Nice valve cd player or dac and amps.

I again tried absorbers behind panels after having failed with diffusors the first time. Sound got centred, but lost all life.

twich54 said:

if you're smiling and your feet are dancing to the beat, that's all that matters !!

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Nuff said partner.

MPS said:

^^ I totally agree. The only purpose of playback system is to provide subjective pleasure.

The need or wish to measure is purely academic or comes from need to identify problem(s) considered disturbing by listening. Now that DSP is easy and cheap to implement, there seems to be a trend to optimize systems for measurements instead of actually improving music reproduction..

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Well stated. Thanks for the comment Markku.

GG

bonzo said:

Yes Ken, my point is, only one system I heard was done by a guy who knew what he was about. Incidentally he had also done a wisdom Audio set up which was my favorite room at an HiFi show.

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Ah, gotcha. It seemed like you were rubbishing measurement/correction, in general. I keep hearing two things about Wisdoms: 1) They're phenomenal, but 2) Only in a very narrow sweet spot. The latter wouldn't be an issue for me, but it is for many.

I again tried absorbers behind panels after having failed with diffusors the first time. Sound got centered, but lost all life.

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My experience with back wave absorption was a significant improvement in precise imaging, and no loss of "life". It could be that you're hearing a loss of HF, because you've lost the back wave reflection. That wouldn't/didn't happen for me, since my preamp measures actual response at the LP and just sets the filters to the target curve i.e. FR @ the LP never varies, provided I use a baseline measurement with the new room setup.

bonzo said:

The more 'measured and corrected' systems I hear, the more my faith in that drops - all of them so far have sounded real bad (to me). The musical ones (or the ones that I consider musical) are set up by those who are into jazz, opera, classical, live concerts, have been into music and trust their ears. Only one Dirac system I have heard so far (and set up by the guy known to be the best at it in the UK) was a good one. There is one guy on a UK forum who actually believes that it doesn't matter how his system sounds, as long as it measures right. Then the best thing is to buy active and correct speakers

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That sounds about right. But I have a couple of ideas as to why:

1) Accurate bass is underwhelming. (You will see this theme a lot if you ever read about the servo-corrected Rythmik subs.) It is NOT boomy, NOT punchy, and does NOT create harmonic distortion for a "fuller, richer sound".

2) People who measure and analyze, and don't have that much experience yet, tend to over-do one aspect or quantity to the detriment of everything else. For example, in the pursuit of a good impulse for frequency response, they might over damp the room, killing the slight amount of reverb that is necessary for a sense of "liveliness" or "ambiance" or whatever you want to call it.

3) Pros that set up systems (the ones that you mention) know what you want, and know how to give it to do. Do you like the "punch" of kick drums? Here, lemme give you a little EQ boost. Do you want brass instruments to sound clear and present with good imaging? Accidentally run your woofer a few dB low in your bi-amp setup. (Ask me how I know)

4) The biggest danger with being a "numbers and measurement" guy is that some people just manage to measure wrong (That seems to be the primary problem when somebody complains of a poor result with the Dirac system). But more importantly, it takes a lot of time or help from others to figure out how to translate the results into an improved standard of living.

bonzo said:

I again tried absorbers behind panels after having failed with diffusors the first time. Sound got centred, but lost all life.

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To have "life" you need the speakers to spray bits of sound in directions other than directly to your ears. So normal cone speakers spray some sound to the sides. With ML speakers, you need some of that back wave to also bounce around. You might have had the diffusors too close to the speakers, or maybe they were the wrong kind.

MPS said:

^^ I totally agree. The only purpose of playback system is to provide subjective pleasure.

The need or wish to measure is purely academic or comes from need to identify problem(s) considered disturbing by listening.

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I think my system already sound pretty good, based on my lying and unreliable ears, but I am disturbed as to why it doesn't sound even better, and thus I have a need to figure out why.

Well I'm just playing with some Dirac s/w just to see how far RC has come. Earlier stuff I have heard just hasn't worked for my ears, sounding somewhat unnatural, but hey, what is to get serious about?

It is just a hobby, chaps. Messing with some RC should be just a bit if fun Whether you like the results or not is another question.

And beanbag - I'm enjoying your posts TBH

I only get angry over power cords...biwire just doesn't light the fuse!

Beachbound said:

I only get angry over power cords…

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OMG, that's too funny ………… some of the power cord discussions make speaker and IC cable talk seem 'normal' !!

beanbag said:

I think my system already sound pretty good, based on my lying and unreliable ears

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Hi bean,

You can always go to church and ask the priest, rabbi, minister or whoever to "forgive" your ears for their transgressions.

And yes Dave, it's the perfect time to morph into the "power cord" discussion.

GG