So the search for the speakers continue.... Summits X vs others

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Joey_V

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So I have heard the Summit X and they actually sound very much like I remembered my Summits to sound. I like the rake angle adjustment feature - this was something that I think OUR forum came up with. Wink Wink... to ML.

The sound is still good and definitely has that wall of sound.

I think this time around I'm going to go for a different sound presentation and I think there's a good chance I'm going with box speakers. I know, I know... it's heresy. But it's sorta what I'm looking for at this time.

I've narrowed it down to a few that I can readily audition and which are somewhat popular in the high end market - so that I have some flexibility to move it around should the need ever arise. However, I'd rather just buy and keep. This is going to be something that I should be willing to commit to for a long time - like at least 5 years or more. Something that should sound good enough that I won't even have the painful itch of wanting to trade in for the next SOTA speaker.

I have narrowed it down to:

1. BW 800 Diamond
2. Wilson Sasha 2 (audition in 2 weeks)
3. Wilson Alexia

I think Focal is out of my price range... the Utopia series is just way too much comparatively. And I'm not particularly sold on Magico just yet... I'd have to travel at least 3 hours just to find a dealer.... and I may just have to, but it's not on my list just yet.

I've gotten a LOT of goosebumps listening to the 800 Diamonds.... very phenomenal speaker. The Alexia - I'm going to audition again tomorrow to get a better idea and comparison to the 800 Diamonds.

Anyway - just wanted to let my friends have some FYI. Nothing too much otherwise in my household. The house is being built as we speak... and I'm stuck with a 2 channel room that is mediocre in size... 17 x 15. But it appears to have some extra room in the attic where I can push out the walls in the future.
 
Joey, your ears, your choice.......and not bad ones at that !

Looking forward to your impression of the Sasha II's ..............

"Pops"
 
Joey, since you're 4+ months away from having a listening room, I'd suggest waiting before you "pull the trigger" on your final speaker choice. ML has hinted they're working on something new for the Reserve Line (albeit ?? timeframe). If my hunch (aka "wish") is correct, it could be a Summit replacement with DSP crossover +/- built-in room correction. IMHO, something along those lines would be a giant leap forward (vs "monkey coffin" technology <g>), but we won't know for sure until a new model is announced.

In the meantime, you could be ripping your CD collection and preparing to dip your toes into the world of computer audio! :D
 
Joey, since you're 4+ months away from having a listening room, I'd suggest waiting before you "pull the trigger" on your final speaker choice. ML has hinted they're working on something new for the Reserve Line (albeit ?? timeframe). If my hunch (aka "wish") is correct, it could be a Summit replacement with DSP crossover +/- built-in room correction. IMHO, something along those lines would be a giant leap forward (vs "monkey coffin" technology <g>), but we won't know for sure until a new model is announced.

In the meantime, you could be ripping your CD collection and preparing to dip your toes into the world of computer audio! :D

Yeah - I won't pull the trigger until at least July at the earliest. I want to treat the room properly. This is a dedicated 2ch room - finally. Won't really know what I'll be getting until I get to that point. Gotta see what ML brings out.

Joey, I see you're wanting to avoid the dreaded Joeyitis. Think you'll succeed? :)

Hmm... I already ran this by the wife - given the green light but she wants less expenses. If I do Alexia - she has told me that we cannot do any other hobby expenses for atleast 5 years.

Of course, the upstream components - I'll start with the stuff I know from Cary and Plinius... then I'll start to play from there.

Lots of things to experiment with this time. Maybe a little ARC? Or maybe try out the somewhat esoteric ones like Dartzeel?

Lots of toys to try out for sure.

Joey, your ears, your choice.......and not bad ones at that !

Looking forward to your impression of the Sasha II's ..............

"Pops"

Oh man... me too Pops... I'm looking forward to that.

I will probably have a few systems in the house... I will definitely try to see where I can fit some Logans. Maybe I can place some in the family room since I find that they're a little more resilient that say a pair of BW 800 diamonds. I mean, when the baby arrives and starts walking and POKING.... not good....

I also have the study to worry about... maybe a pair of bookshelves will go there.

One room at a time. This will be project that takes years.
 
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Boy that was a fail...

Tried to go listen to the Alexias today but they had it disconnected from the room - apparently, the Sasha 2's had just arrived and they were being set up. Won't get to listen to it 'till later this week. I already had my audition CDs ready and everything.

Spoke to the manager - looks like they will be able to A/B the Alexias to the Sasha 2 for me. I'll probably see if I can get them to roll in the Sophia 3 in there also for a 3 way shootout. They said they would mark the floors and have the speakers roll in and out for me and this would be the best way to A/B.

I will have to set up a good chunk of time for this and take notes.

Ideally - after this audition - I should run to the other store where the 800 Diamonds are and run the same CDs. This is my best shot at an A/B between all these speakers.

Then after that - I'll sit and wait to see what else comes up, probably narrow it down also.

Then when the time comes to pounce, I'll pounce.

Keep an eye on the 'gon too.

If the Alexias don't blow me out of the water - no way I'm spending $48K for an incremental upgrade. If the Sasha 2 dont sound significantly better than the 800 Diamonds, then no way am I getting that speaker - especially since my big problem with the Wilsons are that they keep updating their model lines without a real upgrade path. It's irritating to spend that much money only to have a new set come up in 3-4 years.

I have heard the Sophia before... I don't think it is particularly SOTA as the other 2, and $17K is a lot of money for an "entry" level speaker IMO. I dont think I'm interested in this speaker but I have to get my bearings straight and I should given them a chance at audition... it would be nice to know how the Wilson line scales upend this may be my only chance to listen to all 3 in 1 room.
 
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Joey, consider auditioning the ATC SCM50asl speakers. For a little more money, and if you have a big room, the ATC SCM100asl speakers are also worth hearing.
 
Joey, consider auditioning the ATC SCM50asl speakers. For a little more money, and if you have a big room, the ATC SCM100asl speakers are also worth hearing.

Dedicated 17'1" x 14'8" room... can they fit?

How much?

Is it more than the Alexia?
 
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"...can they fit..." - Yes.

'...how much?..." - SCM50 = around $18,000. SCM100 = around $25,000. Not 100% sure of prices. I owned a pair of pre-loved SCM50s for a while a few years back. Awesome speakers! Only sold them because... I was stupid!
 
"...can they fit..." - Yes.

'...how much?..." - SCM50 = around $18,000. SCM100 = around $25,000. Not 100% sure of prices. I owned a pair of pre-loved SCM50s for a while a few years back. Awesome speakers! Only sold them because... I was stupid!

Gotcha. Will search for a dealer.

The more I think about it - I hope that there isn't such a delta in performance with the Alexia or the Sasha 2... I really dont want to spend that much. I will probably have the other dealer hook up the 802 Diamond right next to the 800 Diamond and a/b those as well, if I can get away with the 802 Diamond - it'll be pretty good bang for the buck IMO.

I have a few scenarios:

- If I get the Alexia - this will the most costly endeavor. No other hobby expenses for many years. I will probably have to keep my car for a while, no new watches, no extra expenses from my end. I may end up taking a huge bath... most liability comes with this speaker.
- If I get the Sasha 2 - this will still cost me quite a bit, but it will allow for some savings. I probably wont be able to get a discount on these since it is brand new. My worry with these is I'm going to take a bath if I resell in a few years.
- If I get the BW 800 Diamond - I think I can swing a 15% discount on these, less costly and I will be able to have money left over to perhaps set up an ML system in the family room later in a year or 2. Will probably take a bath somewhat upon sale.
- If I get the BW 802 Diamond - another 15% discount. I will really have a lot of breathing room and I can set up the ML system in the family room in a year. I also won't feel the pinch as much should there be an upgrade in the next 3 years (say BW comes out with a new top range and I want to move to that).... least money lost if I choose to sell later.

We shall see. I will probably run either system with a Cary SLP 05 and a Plinius SA103 for now.
 
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Joey - go to a major hi-fi show and listen to a shed load of different brands if you haven't done that for a while.

That way, you'll feel a damn sight more secure the Wilson and B&W are the right direction to go in. For my money big ARCs work with Wilsons, but maybe a big 211 based Cary would work. Unsure. My 211s were NOT the best match with some Wilson System 7s I tried them with - they were blindingly fast with them with very nice bass, but the treble was too much. If you have problems with Wilsons, given enough power, it'll probably be in the treble region and it's worth trying a fair few amps to get it right.
 
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Joey - go to a major hi-fi show and listen to a shed load of different brands if you haven't done that for a while.

Joey, I highly recommend RMAF in October in Denver if you haven't done that one and if you can wait that long to make a decision. It is a great show in a great city and you will hear so many incredible speakers that your options will be wide open.
 
I think you guys are right. I will try to decide locally as to what I like... Then I'll take notes and go to RMAF.

Probably the easiest way to audition speakers.

You guys should come and we can meet up.
 
By the way I have an a/b of Sophia 3 and Sasha 2 setup for tomorrow after work. I'll post some impressions . Not many have heard the Sasha 2 - and I think less have even compared the Sasha 2 with the smaller sibling Sophia 3 in the same room.

I plan on making a very in-depth review of the Sophia 3 vs the Sasha 2. In a little while, I'll probably head back to do an A/B of the Sasha 2 and the Alexia. Difficult to do a 3 way in 1 day.
 
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Joey, my best friend and next door neighbor bought a pre-loved pair of B&W 802 diamonds last year. The original buyer traded his Sasha 2s (which he had for only a few weeks!) on this pair of B&Ws. The dude had the B&Ws home for only a few weeks before again back trading them on a pair of Focal things. This guy has more money than cents.

Anyhow, my buddy bought the B&Ws for a massive discount on new price. Man, what beautiful speakers. My buddy and I have compared both the 802s and my Montis on many occasions (okay, different rooms and amps etc) and I have been very impressed with the B&Ws. They do a lot of things the Montis does, but in different ways. The 802 bass is stunning; they seem to go down and down forever. They're not quite as easy to drive as my Montis, but they make up for it with brilliant dynamics and superb resolution.

I am not going to try and compare the B&W's subjective sound quality with my Montis speakers. That's just not possible. When you get up to this level of capability, it starts to come down to what you are looking for in a loudspeaker and how you want your sound to be reproduced. It's the same with the ATC speakers. They too, are awesome. So whatever you get your best deal on will help make your decision easier.

Man, auditioning and buying loudspeakers is just so much fun... :)
 
Guess I'm stuck in a rut. If were upgrading my speakers I would look no farther than ML. I still get remarks on how good my (13+ year-old) speakers sound, and I'm still eminently pleased with them.

Given Joey's $50K for a system, I would build it around the CLX, buying the rest of the stuff used if necessary.
 
Joey, my best friend and next door neighbor bought a pre-loved pair of B&W 802 diamonds last year. The original buyer traded his Sasha 2s (which he had for only a few weeks!) on this pair of B&Ws. The dude had the B&Ws home for only a few weeks before again back trading them on a pair of Focal things. This guy has more money than cents.

Anyhow, my buddy bought the B&Ws for a massive discount on new price. Man, what beautiful speakers. My buddy and I have compared both the 802s and my Montis on many occasions (okay, different rooms and amps etc) and I have been very impressed with the B&Ws. They do a lot of things the Montis does, but in different ways. The 802 bass is stunning; they seem to go down and down forever. They're not quite as easy to drive as my Montis, but they make up for it with brilliant dynamics and superb resolution.

I am not going to try and compare the B&W's subjective sound quality with my Montis speakers. That's just not possible. When you get up to this level of capability, it starts to come down to what you are looking for in a loudspeaker and how you want your sound to be reproduced. It's the same with the ATC speakers. They too, are awesome. So whatever you get your best deal on will help make your decision easier.

Man, auditioning and buying loudspeakers is just so much fun... :)

Hey Edwin,

Yeah, tough to compare.... I made a comment today at the audition - at this price range, most everything sounds very good.

But I think your friend probably did not have the Sasha 2.... those just came up this month and I was one of the first to hear it. Probably Sophia 2.
 
Sasha 2 (vs Sophia 3) - An initial listening session.

Introduction:

So without further adieu, here is my review of the Sasha 2. As many of you may know, this is the newest speaker out of the Wilson Audio skunk-works. It improves on the Sasha 1 which was already a formidable speaker in its own right. The Sasha 2 improves with better bass output and integration, the technical beauty of the 7" midrange driver that transcends the Wilson range from the Sophia to the X2 Series 2, and the new soft dome Convergent Synergy Tweeter which has some pretty impressive feats on its own. The CST is supposedly the new BIG THING. This tweeter has a significantly higher power handling secondary to the higher efficiency which lends to its ability to feature more detail with a sense of delicacy... another way of saying - detail without the cost of sounding forced.

In addition, I also listened to the Wilson Sophia 3, in a lesser system, just to get my bearings straight and to compare with the newer bigger sisters. Similar midrange driver, different woofers, different tweeter - the workhorse inverted titanium tweeter whose skeleton is made by Focal.

The demo tracks:

So I chose to mainly listen to 2 songs, mainly because it was easier to remember the sonic differences when switching over to different speakers and when auditioning different speakers in different rooms/audio dealers. The songs I chose were not particularly "audiophile" recordings - since I don't choose to pin myself down to listening to only such a particular subset of audio reproduction. I chose some popular, semi Top 40 type tracks that probably are a little more processed than some would care to enjoy or admit, but for lack of a better term - I liked the songs.

The first is by Lana Del Ray - "Young and Beautiful". You may recall this track being the headliner for the Baz Luhrmann film "The Great Gatsby". This track opens with a piano and this surreal sound that reminds me of floating ethereally through a mist. Then her voice pops a little off center to the right. About 40 seconds in, a nice bass drum hits and the song starts to gain energy.

The second is John Legend - "All of Me". I chose this as a second demo track because I find it to be a simple track with 2 major components - his voice and a piano playing beside him (to his right).

The Sasha 2:

Highs:

Definitely extended without sounding forced. Not much sibilance if at all. Definitely a lot of audio information to make the whole music piece sound more real, more extended, and less like reproduced material. I did find it a little too polite however, perhaps this is the new house sound of Wilson?

Mids:

I would say quite detailed and definitely more realistic than that of the Sophias. The midrange opens up quite a bit more of the performance. The meat of the voices sound a bit more realistic and a bit more like voices coming out of the mouths of performers.

Lows:

Quick and deep, nothing missing here. Stops on a dime and starts lightning fast. I've heard these tracks many times before and it was as good as anything I've heard yet.

Overall sound and presentation:

I found the Sasha 2 to be quite a conundrum to me - while it had more detail, there was a sense that it was less forced. I found that it was particularly MORE realistic sounding than the Sophia 3. When playing John Legend's "All of Me", it was nearly a night and day difference when the piano started playing to the right of him. There was this richness and this realism that is just difficult to describe in words but was audibly more realistic. I also found that his voice was less "forced", definitely a result of the Convergent Synergy Tweeter. There was less sibilance and there was a more focused sound to his voice. There was definitely more space around the notes, so to speak.

When I listened to Lana Del Ray - similar conclusion. I found her voice to be well reproduced, well placed and hung around 5 feet up in midair. There was less fuzz around the vocals and a better sense of density. The detail was all there, but the high end of the spectrum was not as piercing as I noted on the Sophia 3. There was less sibilance and yet the details remained. This extra detail in highs and detail in bass allowed a better sense of space. The piano and the bass kicks in this track was well placed and the stage felt deep. Her voice was a little in front of the plane of the front baffles of the speakers while the bass and other instruments sounded at least 5 to 10 feet behind the rear wall... at least. Definitely easier to "walk around" the performers and instruments. Definitely a better sense of stage.

Sophia 3:

Same tracks - but different presentation and sound. The over $10,000 price difference in speakers (not counting upstreams) yielded a significant decrease in resolution, a decrease in overall stage space, a decent vocal presence but with a reproduced hi-fi quality to it (sibilant and grainy).

If I had listened to the Sophia 3s at first, I would've been pretty satisfied with the sound I was getting. It was definitely musical and something you could tap your feet to. The voice had a very good density to it, the midrange sounded a little recessed but still quite believable. The stage was decent in depth and the overall presentation was enjoyable.

BUT... and this is the BIG BUT.... coming from the Sasha 2. Oh my goodness.

It sounded poor. The voices were overly detailed while sounding a bit rough around the edges and with some sibilance that would intermittently break up the vocal presentation. The midrange was too "polite"... probably a way for Dave Wilson to make the speaker a bit more friendly to the general populous... the piano in John Legend's track sounded weak, for lack of a better term... and not something that I was able to fix with move volume either. There was definitely less air to the high end reproduction and bass, while good, did not add to the sense of space.

Simply put, the Sophia 3 sounded like reproduced music. There was less space between the performers, it was difficult for me to move about the stage, there was less discrete positioning of the performers (the soundstage was good and solid, but there was less space in between the different instruments and voices, if that makes sense).... and the depth of the stage was very deficient - relatively FLAT so to speak.

Conclusion:
Sasha 2 was definitely worth the $11,000 upgrade from the Sophia 3... no question about it. If you have the extra money and are somewhat reasonable, there is no reason why you would choose the Sophia 3 in this case. Not that it's not a good speaker, in fact, I tapped my toes a few times, but the reproduction is just not up to par when compared back to back to the Sasha 3. Now, there could be something said about the fact that the upstreams of the Sasha 2 were a magnitude greater than the upstreams I heard on the Sophia 3, but there was nothing I could do about this since these speakers are so meticulous to place, that it would've taken my dealer hours to A/B the two with the exact electronics. However, we were in the same room, the positioning was similar, but the characteristics (from my experience) transcends the difference in upstream electronics. The Audio Research house sound was the same, perhaps the density and detail was not there in the CD 6 or the integrated VSi75 compared to the CD 9, Ref 5SE, and 150 combo.... but there was no sense in getting around the fact that the reproduction on the Sophia 3 was just that - sounded like a reproduction.

You may think, however, that I enjoyed the Sasha 2. And you would be only half right.

Yes, the Sasha 2 had better sense of air, better staging, better walkability around the instruments and performers, better bass, better extension on both ends of the spectrum - and sense that I was listening less to a reproduced track, but more to the real thing.

That said - that's compared to the Sophia 3.

Now, don't hold me to it because it's been a week since I auditioned them (though I reauditioned the little brother 802 Diamonds yesterday), but I thought the B&W 800 Diamonds on Classe electronics (CDP-502 cd player, CP-800 preamp, Classe Omega Mono amplification) sounded overall better. I have to listen to the 800 diamonds again (at a different dealer, slightly bigger room) to be sure, but from my recollection, the 800 Diamonds were simply better to my ears. Something about the newly revised diamond tweeter, that FST driver in the Marlan midrange enclosure, and updated MF crossover - just sounds like heaven to me.

I will give up bass reproduction to the Sasha 2... that's fine. The 800 Diamonds don't go as deep. But the overall presentation was more suitable to my taste. There was a bit more projection of the voices into the room (while the Sasha 2 appeared to be a little bit more laid back and relaxed in presentation), there was DEFINITELY more air and space around the performers and instruments (800 diamonds had a way of presenting the stage with a greater degree of walkability), and there was definitely still gobs of detail. I would say, the high end was a little bit more on the "hotter" side than on the Sasha 2... so I'm not sure which is more neutral.

Final Words:
Sophia 3 was ok, but relatively outclassed against these SOTA components.

Sasha 2 was very good, but for me... I did not have a single hair raising experience. None of my hairs stood up. I did experience SOME foot tapping music, but as the tracks wore on, I found myself looking at my watch and wondering when was this track done. Pretty interesting for a $29,900 speaker, huh? Not sure if I didn't like the upstreams or if it was too polite because of the Convergent Synergy Tweeter AND the tubed ARC products, but I found the presentation too laid back and still sounding a bit like reproduced music.

Preliminarily, but I have to listen again (I will go back and audition the BW 800 Diamond back to back against the Sasha 2 in the coming weeks, I'll drive from 1 store to the other on the same morning), the BW 800 Diamonds got me to tap my feet a LOT more, I was bobbing my head more. There was several instances in which I found the hairs on my arms and back to raise up when listening to the same tracks and there was some very impressive moments where I just found my jaw nearly hitting the floor when listening to certain reproductions. The sense of space, I thought, was better. The midrange was better. The walkability around the stage was better. It probably gave up bass reproduction and slam AND the tweeter was probably a little less polite than the Wilson Convergent Synergy Tweeter.

Nonetheless, I found the music through the BW 800 Diamonds more to be an "experience" rather than a reproduction. I found myself replaying the tracks over and over and could not wait to start again. I found it to be able to play back nearly any track I threw at it... even Jay Z.

In the sea of SOTA equipment - I found the 800 Diamonds to be more my style - I hope that makes sense.

Equipment:
Wilson Audio Sasha 2 - $29,900
Audio Research CD 9 - $13,000
Audio Research Reference 5SE Preamp - $13,000
Audio Research 150 Stereo Amp - $13,000

Wilson Sophia 3 - $18,000
Audio Research CD 6 - $9000
Audio Research VSi75 Integrated - $7500

The Room and Speaker Positioning:
Sasha 2 and Sophia 3 placed about 9-10 feet between each other, the chair about 13 feet back from front plane of speaker baffles. The room is about 18 feet wide and 25 feet deep. The speakers were each about 4-5 feet beyond the rear wall (front baffle to wall).
 
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Joey, thanks for the informative write up !

I will add, based on what I've experienced myself, that part of the problem with your Sophia experience was the amp being used. IMO it does not have the 'balls' (damping factor) to control the bottom end.

Regardless, looking forward to your follow up with the B&W's !
 
Joey,

How "hard" did you have to listen to each speaker to ascertain their respective strengths and weaknesses?

I put alot of faith in "first" impressions followed, of course, by later, due diligence confirmation.

And I wouldn't "write off" the equipment difference given my recent experience with auditioning the YG's.

GG
 
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