What is the sonic difference between the Summit and the Summit X?

Joey_V said:

Dave - I thought the X had new panels and this was a reason for a change in sound...?

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No, they are the same panels.... at least visually. I've never seen any marketing otherwise.

Hocky said:

No, they are the same panels.... at least visually. I've never seen any marketing otherwise.

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Indeed, when I had my Summit (non-X) panels replaced under warranty, the new panels were clearly marked Summit X.

Listened to the Summit X today.... next to BW 802 Diamonds.

The Summit X parted the same kind of sound that I recall from my Summits. Very similar sort of feel and taste... the speakers were not ideally set up just yet, even though I was playing with their position and rake angles.

Overall... I did note the bass hit hard. Harder than I recalled in the past. Midrange/treble and up.... similar.

Focus and staging is very much related to positioning and room. Very difficult to get right unless I spend a day or so at the dealer.

In the same room, however, the 802 Diamonds... those are some quality speakers.

If somebody has the budget, then it always worries me if they go in for standard marketed brands like Wilson Sashas and Alexis. Sorry, don't mean to offend, but consider me the devil's advocate. If you do have the money, why don't you go that extra distance to listen to real designer speakers? If a guy who owns the 120k Goldmund speakers, 50k Goldmund TT, and the Goldmund amps has the Tune Audio Animas (@30k) in his room and listens to them over the Goldmunds (and song to song I preferred the Animas over the Goldmunds), maybe it's worth giving a listen to? Or the Cessaros? Or other planars like the Analysis Audio or Audio Exklusiv, which are around the same budget as Summit X? Or try something like GG did, with YG or MBL?

Hola. I have a customer that owns the Summit. When the new X came out, he asked me if it there a kit from ML to make the old version X. I asked ML about it, and they told me that there were so many little changes inside, that they decided not to make a conversion kit. This conversion was only made at the factory, and impossible to do it on your own. You could ask ML about this. Happy listening!

bonzo said:

Or try something like GG did, with YG or MBL?

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Hi bonzo,

My experiment with YG was very short lived. Didn't work in my room with my gear. Main culprit was the way they "energized" the room versus the ML's and MBL's, which by design, provide a much larger radiation pattern and something I've grown accustomed to after some 30 years.

GG

That's fine. At least you tried it wasn't a wilson or a focal

Gordon Gray said:

Hi bonzo,

My experiment with YG was very short lived. Didn't work in my room with my gear. Main culprit was the way they "energized" the room versus the ML's and MBL's, which by design, provide a much larger radiation pattern and something I've grown accustomed to after some 30 years.

GG

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Shoot! I thought you were kidding. Any ideas going forward?

Hi Roberto, just noticed you have Shun Mook UDRs. I tried them recently under my Dac and they made a massive difference, much bigger than anything else I have tried for isolation. Also another dealer whom I respect, who doesn't sell for the sake of selling and has built his own system he likes to listen to, with Analysis Audio Omega, uses the Shun Mook Mpingo discs. He took some off while we were playing music and I could make out a negative difference.

InterMechanico said:

Shoot! I thought you were kidding. Any ideas going forward?

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Hi InterMechanico.

I played around with my room (principal action was to remove all acoustical panels except for two) and am now "reasonably" happy with the MBL's. Issue was a somewhat ill defined / sloppy mid - low bass room response. I was shooting for the stars and have now come back to earth.

Also, pretty tough, as I recently discovered, to overcome thirty years of listening experiences and the biases thereof. That's why, I suspect, most "panel" lovers find it hard to switch to a dynamic speaker after becoming accustomed to what panels do so well.

Good to be grounded again.

May look at getting some MBL 101's once I retire but that's a ways off.

GG

PS: This experience underscores the absolute need for an "in home" audition before purchasing any gear. And my bank account is off of life support.

Gordon Gray said:

PS: This experience underscores the absolute need for an "in home" audition before purchasing any gear. And my bank account is off of life support.

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You're absolutely right. I catch myself getting carried away on a regular basis. I now make sure I bounce any upgrades off of my Girlfriend to make sure I'm being reasonable about a purchase. I had been quite close to purchasing a pair of tube mono blocks recently, when Carrie asked me "what do they sound like?" I replied that I was unable to demo them, but they are a good deal. She asked again "but what do they sound like; you should be sure if you're spending that kind of money, right?" I replied.... Yes, I should be....

Your experience reinforces that point. If for no other reason than to avoid having to re-sell something.

I'm sorry they didn't work out well for you. What made you choose to try another loudspeaker (other than the MBL's)? If I remember correctly, your last ESL's were Summits?


PS: Every heard the saying: Freedom 55?

Glad you extricated yourself relatively painlessly, Gordon,
I re read this review which has interesting ML quote re difference between Summit and its X successor.
"Though it looks similar at first glance to the Summit, the Summit X is a completely different product. MartinLogan’s Devin Zell told me, “We scrapped the CAD drawings for Summit X. The panel is new, the woofers are new and the crossover is new.” Tonepub audio review.
I am awaiting shop demo of Summit X (I know the demo room well and it will be with same digital front end and a similar simaudio moon integrated. (If the Summit X is worth changing to it will have to overcome the slight handicap of being powered by the Simaudio 700i integrated as opposed to my Pre/Power!)
If I am impressed home dem will follow. It has taken me a long time to get to this point as my Spires just sound so tasty!!
I heard the latest SE upgrades to Meridian 7200 and 8000 at the UK Meridian roadshow in Edinburgh yesterday. They were impressively improved from the previous versions, with thorough work on timing and phase alignment in digital domain... But I still prefer panel presentation and especially transparency!
Don't have timescale for Summit X demo yet but looking forward to it! Will write comparative review when it happens.

Dougster said:

Glad you extricated yourself relatively painlessly, Gordon,
I re read this review which has interesting ML quote re difference between Summit and its X successor.
"Though it looks similar at first glance to the Summit, the Summit X is a completely different product. MartinLogan’s Devin Zell told me, “We scrapped the CAD drawings for Summit X. The panel is new, the woofers are new and the crossover is new.” Tonepub audio review.

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How is the panel new? I have heard of no differences in construction between Summit and Summit X panels. Maybe he was referring to the fact that they now sing with a Canadian accent.

Sun Mook Mpingo Discs explained...

bonzo said:

Hi Roberto, just noticed you have Shun Mook UDRs. I tried them recently under my Dac and they made a massive difference, much bigger than anything else I have tried for isolation. Also another dealer whom I respect, who doesn't sell for the sake of selling and has built his own system he likes to listen to, with Analysis Audio Omega, uses the Shun Mook Mpingo discs. He took some off while we were playing music and I could make out a negative difference.

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Hola Bonzo, and yes, I have them. All over my room. I do truly love what they do and what they award(ed) to my listening experience in my sound system. They work and sing by sympathetic resonance. Mpingo in African means "divine wood that sings". Here is a brief explanation of how they work... http://shunmook.com/explained.html Happy listening

Roberto, don't get me wrong, you are a veteran, I am a newbie, but looking at your gear and tweaks (Shun Mook, HRS, which are all great), one thing I would change is the dac. I went on a crazy dac audition and there are some brilliant dacs out there available in the second hand market

Rich said:

How is the panel new? I have heard of no differences in construction between Summit and Summit X panels. Maybe he was referring to the fact that they now sing with a Canadian accent.

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And what's wrong with that, eh?

bonzo said:

Roberto, don't get me wrong, you are a veteran, I am a newbie, but looking at your gear and tweaks (Shun Mook, HRS, which are all great), one thing I would change is the dac. I went on a crazy dac audition and there are some brilliant dacs out there available in the second hand market

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What are these brilliant DACs of which you speak? I thought the Audiolab was supposed to be really good.

Hola. I replied some time ago regarding the DACs, and why I chose the M-DAC by Audiolab. Out there are better DACs than the M-DAC of course, but what you get for what you paid, this DAC is a bargain. There are coming many changes in digital DACs ahead. Bigger and faster chips, with improved software to bring the most critical passages of the music, very, very near as the real thing. And what the big knowledge people on this market is doing, it not to expand but to compress more the signal. The DACs on these days are so fast and so reliable, like the SABRE chip, that there are so many options, so many different ways to go...the chip is so powerful that the designers do not know yet, all of what this chip is capable to do. And not only the SABRE is on the market. So, this is my reason why I have not spent many on the DACs these days...I have the M-DAC which it is not perhaps the best, but I am happy with it. I can listen the heart of the musician(s) playing for me, as I did with my LPs. Still, LPs sound wonderful too. Happy listening!

Bernard said:

And what's wrong with that, eh?

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Sorry, I forgot to add (in my best Jerry Seinfeld voice): "Not that there is anything wrong with that."

I think Roberto has the right idea as far as DACs go. The improvements are coming at such a pace that you could easily get on an expensive continuous upgrade roundabout with them. Better to find something you really like and then hold onto it for five or ten years before you upgrade to newer tech. Unless you just enjoy spending thousands of dollars to upgrade your system every two years. I know, I know. I speak heresy.