Sub woofer crossover point

I am working on dialing in my subs after moving both of them to new locations in my listening room.
When I set up the room I just placed the Depth i subs between and behind my CLSIIzs out of convince to get things up and running.
I have gone to the tried and true sub crawl and picked the 2 best locations I found. I was surprised it turned out to be almost centered on the back wall as #1 and almost centered on the left wall for #2. I started playing with settings yesterday and came to the conclusion it is time to purchase a calibrated mic and equipment to see what the room looks like on screen.

I was surprised how much better the full range of sound was with the subs not behind the CLSs. Much cleaner clearer sound imaging seems much less cluttered. It is a case of you don't know what you aren't hearing until you hear something different. Never would have guessed the sound stage was that cluttered.

Anyway my curiosity is where do those of you who have subs cross them over with your mains? I realize this is not only room Dependant but equipment and set up Dependant to say nothing of how much bass you might like.

Right now with my CLSIIZs that are rated down to 35hz, (though I doubt there is much information there) I am crossing my Depth i subs at 30hz (but this is still not etched in stone), previously I had them at 45hz when they were behind the mains.

The phase went from 180 behind mains to 0 in new location.

25hz adjustment went from +1 to -4.

Volume went from 3 to 6.

It is all interesting how much the room changes with speaker movement.

So where do you cross over your sub with what speaker?

Sorry Brad, I can't give you an answer right now, but am pondering the same question. Once I get my BalancedForce 210 sub, I'll use the Perfect Bass Kit and XTZ measurements to "dial it in" for my room. Since your Depth i's don't have Room EQ capability, you really should invest in a speaker/room measurement kit (either XTZ, Omnimic, or REW). Unfortunately, I can't just "lend" you my XTZ Pro, as it requires a computer and serial number confirmation for the software download.

IMHO, objective measurements are critical for optimal sub integration. Check out my preliminary measurements here... http://www.martinloganowners.com/fo...-and-212-subs!&p=161672&viewfull=1#post161672

Brad225 said:

...you don't know what you aren't hearing until you hear something different.

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Truer words were never spoken, Brad. Every time I see a photo of a system with subs collocated with mains, I cringe.

As Alan has suggested, your best bet for determining the ideal crossover to the subs (not too mention sub locations) is to first purchase that room measurement gear. Ideal crossover can be hugely subjective, but it's best done based upon the measured FR of both subs and mains. REW is the most powerful, but can be daunting to the uninitiated; Omnimic provides plenty of flexibility and is dirt-simple to use. I'm not impressed by my first model XTZ, but the newer, Pro unit looks to be much improved.

I looked at the 3 systems you mentioned. Being slightly challenged in the technical aspect of audio calculations I chose the XTZ Pro and ordered it today. Looking forward to hours of messing around and better sound.
Thanks

Brad225 said:

I have gone to the tried and true sub crawl and picked the 2 best locations I found. I was surprised it turned out to be almost centered on the back wall as #1 and almost centered on the left wall for #2.

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Brad, nothing surprising there, as the research on multi-subs has shown that centered positions on front or back wall along with mid-side walls are good locations. So your experimentation just proved it yet again.

Brad225 said:

So where do you cross over your sub with what speaker?

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As others have said, use measurements, and with your new XTZ, you'll probably be shocked at how little bass output a CLS actually has in-room. Try measuring them at 95dB, and you'll likely see they are way down at 60Hz.

My recommendation is that if you have steep crossovers, go higher in cutoff, like 80 or 90Hz. That will relieve the CLS of trying to generate large panel motions in the low-bass and let it cleanly handle mid-bass frequencies.
With two well positioned and dialed in subs, there is no point in forcing the CLS and its amp to deal with low-end stuff.

BTW- for real magic, try a room correction setup next. It's amazing how that transforms the in-room performance of the system.

JonFo said:

Brad, nothing surprising there, as the research on multi-subs has shown that centered positions on front or back wall along with mid-side walls are good locations. So your experimentation just proved it yet again.

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True for multi-seat home theaters, the research shows that mid-wall positions provide the most consistent bass from seat to seat. If one is a solitary listener, mid-wall may not be the ideal. In any case, mid-wall will mitigate/eliminate odd-order modes along the axis of the wall.

BTW- for real magic, try a room correction setup next. It's amazing how that transforms the in-room performance of the system.

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+ 1 million

My current x-over setting is 50hz (Ascents and Rythmik F15HP). Anything much higher than that and sub becomes too localized. My set up has only been done by ear and I'm sure it can be improved. I, unfortunately, have not had any time to so run any REW measurements, but plan to in the near future.

Tried bumping up the sub crossover to 65hz and 85hz and found much more information but the sub located behind me on the back wall was over powering and annoying so I am going to move it to the other side wall and see how it sounds today. But first I need to check a few things off the honey do list. Happy wife, happy listening time.

My REL T1 sub is crossed over at 30 Hz. Seems optimal in my setup (with a DSPeaker AntiMode Dual Core for DRC).

Guido F.

Moving the second sub from back wall to right side was quite an improvement. Both are about 3/5th the wall lengh away from the front wall. I set both at 80hz, 90 degree phase, 0 25hz adjustment and just under 4 on the volume and it fills the sound stage very nicely.
I can't hear anything coming from the subs from my seat but if you walk near them you can clearly hear them.
I am running them on line level out of the Monitor Out on the preamp so I can mute the music to the mains and hear what the subs are playing. It's interesting how little the subs appear to be adding from my listening position but what a noticeable difference in the sound stage.

I also tried both subs with a mono signal, running both L & R signal to each of them and then going back to one left and one right and the bass was much cleaner run as stereo. Currently i have the right sub on the right side but I'm going to try swaping the signal to see if there is any difference.

I am looking forward to receiving the XTZ Pro to find out how much signal the CLS's are actually putting out in the lower frequency's.

With the subs on the side walls nothing has changed with the improvment in the image clarity I mentioned previously.