Apogees

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bonzo

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Heard the Apogees today at Justin (User211)'s place. Extreeeemely dynamic as compared to the Logans (I haven't heard the CLX). The bass is superb, and fast, and powerful. We heard some Led Zep, Metallica, and Sabbath before moving on to blues, jazz, female vocals, electronic and folk. Justin drives them with valves, even his dac is a valve (the Lampizator), so I can only imaging how powerful they would be with SS amps.

The midrange is excellent too. Overall a more rounded speaker than the Summits. He has also made his listening room pretty ambient, by putting lights behind the panels that glow and change color. Rounded an excellent weekend for my hifi education listening to brilliant horns yesterday and the Apogees today. Highly recommended especially for those who are already into panels.
 
Was good to meet you, Kedar. That was an enjoyable morning.

As you know I used Logans for many, many years. I still like them, but obviously I prefer the Duettas.

The CLX, when you go and listen, are not as dynamic, or as extended in the bass (without subs), but they have a bit more scale as they are larger. The mid range is excellent on the CLX, as is the bass within its more constrained frequency range. It isn't as impactful, but it is detailed. It is a lovely speaker IMHO.

Good luck in your search, and defo get a AG Nano or Duo dem sorted if possible with the most recent models. I tend to suspect recent Duos are quite a bit better than the older ones as they look to have been revised quite a lot.
 
Hola. When I got into the hi-end goods, one of my first speakers were the Duettas. That was around 1986 year. I bought them in Sound Components at Miami, and I met Dennis Chern, who now works for Martin Logan. Some friends did buy the Duettas too. At that time, our high humidity destroyed them, in six months, all of them were totally out of use. I remember the clarity of the strings of the guitar. Also the bass was outstanding. At that time, most of us were using Mark Levison gear. You needed some power to drive them. They are not too easy to drive. Deep bass, and outstanding clarity as I recall, but perhaps what you do like, I do not. When you have too much dynamics on certain musical notes from a guitar or a piano, or the female voice, my feeling or what I sense is like being in a cartoon. My ears sudden are into the singer's throat, and when that note ends, I am sitting back at my listening position. The other musical instruments remains at the stage. With my CLXs, the dynamics, are well controlled. I do not get this. On the other hand, I do think as you do too, that they are not extended in the bass notes as the Duettas, and definitive, they need one or two subs as a complement. One unit, if your room is small. When buying the CLXs, you have to think that they are designed in two parts, and a sub is a most, if you want that deep bass. The stage, the size of the musical instrument(s), the timbre, the feeling of the musician(s) the air between the instruments, the harmonic texture, the coherence between the piano notes (easy to understand what the left hand is doing vs the right hand in a piano), and yes, perhaps not too dynamic, but it is a truly different speaker on ML gear. Do not get me wrong. I do like a lot the Duettas, and I am going to be nailed when I am going to say, that are better than the Magneplanars. I had also the Timpani IIIB around 84. The transition of the crossover point at high frequency, makes a mess...and I think it is due to the phase shift. There is where the coherence is not possible, even having a very good flat frequency response. The ML gear is free of this. At the beginning with ML, 87, what drove me crazy was the ML transparency of the sound. ML had made a big evolution for good, and I do know that the other very good brands had done the same thing. I think it is a reason why I do like so much the way that ML sings. Please friends, excuse my dare to express my way of thinking regarding to a such brilliant, well design and great performance as the Duettas. Happy listening!
 
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Congrats on your VTL amps Roberto, I've really like VTLs when I have heard them, but alas I have not with MLs.

Graz's work on Apogee ribbons means that they don't sound as they once did - I've witnessed that with recentish ribbon changes. The crossovers are different too. But the basic personality won't be that far off. I do believe the mid range / treble has markedly improved over the originals.

Anyway, enjoy your CLX. I know you love them. And rightly so!
 
Before owning ML's, I had a pair of Apogee Stage's. They were superb, and definitely more dynamic than ML's. As I recall, the soundstage was projected FORWARD from the panels, rather than extending backward, as with my Summits. However, their large trapezoid shape and opaque panels had low WAF, and were not suitable for my mixed use family/listening room, so I (reluctantly) sold them. I'm hoping the pending addition of a BalancedForce 210 sub with my Summits will add a bit more dynamics to my room, and bring me closer to that magical full range sound I know the Summits are capable of.
 
Congrats on your VTL amps Roberto, I've really like VTLs when I have heard them, but alas I have not with MLs.

Graz's work on Apogee ribbons means that they don't sound as they once did - I've witnessed that with recentish ribbon changes. The crossovers are different too. But the basic personality won't be that far off. I do believe the mid range / treble has markedly improved over the originals.
So, can you still call them Apogees?
 
Justin, I would have never taken you for a king of bling. :p

Roberto sent me this picture of you when you went to visit. Based on this, I think you SHOULD SEND TOM MONEY!!! You bling master, you.

30 indeed. We all know that's not true.

Bling_78828f_4474276.jpg
 
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Believe or not, it was the high humidity. The aluminum foil started to peel off the speaker´s membrane. The joints also suffer because of this.

Regarding the ML stat panels, I was for Jim Power, a kind of rat lab. The University of Kansas, with the support of ML, came up, with the adhesive that are used on these days, which I understand, it is at atom level. Nasa use it too.

Happy listening!
 
I also had apogees , preferred them to my ML but the low waf just became not worth it
 
Believe or not, it was the high humidity. The aluminum foil started to peel off the speaker´s membrane. The joints also suffer because of this.

Regarding the ML stat panels, I was for Jim Power, a kind of rat lab. The University of Kansas, with the support of ML, came up, with the adhesive that are used on these days, which I understand, it is at atom level. Nasa use it too.

Happy listening!

I'd have thought the glue would have got away with it sandwiched between two water impervious materials. Obviously not.

I wonder if Graz's current glues would stand up to it. They are not the same, but they are absolutely critical for SQ in the MRT. However, without the sort of frame bracing being used in some high spec new or refurbished Apogees these days, the wooden frames would still be an issue. Knowing what the problems are with hindsight, I have no doubt a pair could be made to cope with your environment, not that I am trying to sway you. You have invested heavily in ML!:)
 
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There is another pair... the problem with them, is when you are going to play, there are a lot of visible sparks, and noise, like arcing. I have not seeing it, just trusting in his comments regarding them...now he is another CLX user. Happy listening!
 
Moral of the story - don't live in Costa Rica!!! If these stories really are true god knows what happens to the electronics.

I really hope your panels last more than a year or two Roberto. I'd be amazed if they aren't compromised or start arcing after the super- destructive atmosphere you have, giving forth to issues the like of which I have seen nowhere else!
 
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Well, since the new panels coat came out, I had no panels issue any more. I am so glad that the panel epidemic is over. No more issues regarding panels...but I do have issues with their psu. But this is because electronics component failures, not because the high humidity weather. We have only two seasons, the wet and the dry. The dry season only last 3 and a half months. I truly think that this coat, (which it has more than 15 years now) truly was the solution to the problem. Martin Logan built a special chamber where they could change the humidity and the temperature, dramatically, and Jim Power reported that the testing panels were doing fine, and each time measuring great!...so at last, the got confident with this special coat and the adhesive. I was glad to help them out. I remember changing panels to a customer four times, between three or four months. He gave up, and got a different speakers (at that time, he got Sonus Fiber). He always said that when Martin Logan panels were functioning right, the audio nirvana was there. Also, I have PSU with corrosion at the PC boards traces, and you can see the green color of copper oxidation. There is nothing we can do about this. This happens when the units are not in use for certain time... if you use them, there is not issues at all. As a general rule, it is good for use, to listen to the music every day or so. Not left your system without use for a month or so. Happy listening!
 
Re PCBs and moisture: Conformal Coating

All panels will fail. As planar speaker users we must accept this. They are a consumable. The simple question is when will they fail? It is a bit like a game of Russian Roulette! Good luck with yours, Roberto. If they make 10 years I think you will have done very, very well all things considered.
 
Moral of the story - don't live in Costa Rica!!!
But then, living in Costa Rica is good for the human body. All the issues I had with dry skin went away immediately.......and I was there only 8 days! Also, it was plus 35°C there, whereas it's minus 35°C here right now.

Sorry to digress.
 
Re PCBs and moisture: Conformal Coating

All panels will fail. As planar speaker users we must accept this. They are a consumable. The simple question is when will they fail? It is a bit like a game of Russian Roulette! Good luck with yours, Roberto. If they make 10 years I think you will have done very, very well all things considered.
I now have customers with more than those 10 years that you are talking about, and it is the coat it is used on the latest old panels type. The stat panels epidemic is over! I am sure of it!...when they will fail? I can not answer that...but now I do have a lot of very happy Martin Logan users here...with no panels issue at all, thanks to the new adhesive. There might be a bad panel once and then, but not as it was before. As far as I know, the new stat panels are made with a coat of aluminum, before the coating was made of gold, silver and copper, osmio, iridio and platino, rodio, rutenio y palandio. Sorry, I do not know the name of these metals in English, but you can figure it out. A reason why the look of the new panels are brighter than before. I think that Jim Power did the homework, providing to us, the Martin Logan users, a safer, better built, better sounding, new panels. Be confident, I assure you, they last longer than the previous type. Happy listening!
 
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