Thoughts on Passive Bi-Amp for Electromotion

Sorry if this was discussed in a previous thread, but I couldn't find anything so I will post it here.

My set-up is 5.1 off a Pioneer SC-72. Matinee, 2 electromotions, 2 motion 4's. A Best Buy "expert" told me I might want to use the 2 rear surround channels (the SC-72 is 7.1) as a bi-amp for the ESL fronts.

The Electromotion ESLs do not have 4 posts, so I am assuming he was referring to passive bi-amping them (either that or he mistakenly thought the electromotions had 4 posts). A few questions...

1. Is this a good idea? I have heard passive bi-amping refered to as "fools bi-amp" because without the second set of posts the power is not being distributed to separate sides of the crossover. But in my laymans mind, this would double the power to both the panel and woofer, which may help in higher volume situations?

2. If there is an advantage to passive bi-amping, are there any rules of thumb I should know about? Like perhaps making sure the speaker wire lengths are exactly the same?

3. Would it be possible (although I am pretty sure not advisable) to open up the speaker and add a second set of posts for active bi-amping?

Pretty stupid they didn't put a second set of posts on these things considering they are $1000 bucks apiece. My motion 4s have two sets of inputs and they only cost $250 each.

I know, I hate the crap binding things as they cant even be called posts. To take away those options is ludicrous as most of us own cables that cost the price of a near new car.

Waste of time with no sonic benefit. You would do better to buy a separate quality two-channel amp to power the electromotions, leaving your receiver amps to power center and surrounds.

And before you knock the lack of extra posts on the EM's, just remember that they were built to a very economical price point and provide unparalleled sound for the money. What other company is offering a hybrid ESL speaker for two grand? None that I know of.

Rich said:

And before you knock the lack of extra posts on the EM's, just remember that they were built to a very economical price point and provide unparalleled sound for the money. What other company is offering a hybrid ESL speaker for two grand? None that I know of.

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Thats no excuse, I cant even fit normal banana plugs from my gold eclipse into the terminals

projectormovielover said:

Thats no excuse, I cant even fit normal banana plugs from my gold eclipse into the terminals

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Sounds like a pretty good excuse to me. You get what you pay for. 2k buys you very little these days, and I agree with Rich; EM's for 2k is a good deal. If you want to use banana plugs, upgrade the posts or upgrade the speakers. You choose.

InterMechanico said:

Sounds like a pretty good excuse to me. You get what you pay for. 2k buys you very little these days, and I agree with Rich; EM's for 2k is a good deal. If you want to use banana plugs, upgrade the posts or upgrade the speakers. You choose.

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The price of normal binding posts is about the same as those contraptions on my Electromotion so its a design flaw not a budget decision.

projectormovielover said:

The price of normal binding posts is about the same as those contraptions on my Electromotion so its a design flaw not a budget decision.

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Not a design flaw. A budget decision based on where this speaker sits in the product line (price point and expected market). The vast majority of people buying electromotions will have no desire to bi amp them, and most of them probably don't even know what the term means. Likewise, those who are truly into Hifi enough to want to biamp will probably not settle for an electromotion. Not surprisingly, the next model up (Theos) is set up for biamping. It also costs about three grand more.

Cost of speaker has nothing to do with the fact that there are only two posts. Ethos's are nearly $7,000 a pair and also only two posts. My Motion 40s are for all practical purposes, the same prices as the ESLs and I have four posts.

ML picks and chooses which speaker gets two or four posts based on some criteria I'm sure, and every review I ever read about any ML raves about the posts. I think its a pretty common theme that the posts are solid on ML speakers.

Rich said:

Not a design flaw. A budget decision based on where this speaker sits in the product line (price point and expected market). The vast majority of people buying electromotions will have no desire to bi amp them, and most of them probably don't even know what the term means. Likewise, those who are truly into Hifi enough to want to biamp will probably not settle for an electromotion. Not surprisingly, the next model up (Theos) is set up for biamping. It also costs about three grand more.

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The design flaw I mention is not putting even a single set of binding posts on the speakers. I cannot connect nothing but my garbage speaker cables up to them so tell me thats a good idea?

osha7677,
Let's get the terminology straighten out first. Bi-amp means to use 2 separate amplification (modules) to drive 2 separate speakers. By definition, you must have 2 sets of speaker terminals in order to hook up 2 different amplifiers. That said, passive bi-amping means to allow for the internal speaker crossover to split the signals coming from the amplifiers. Active bi-amping means to perform the crossover functionality electronically, prior to sending the signals to the amplifiers. The term "active" in this context refers to the "active" electronic circuitry used to split up the original signal into highs and lows.
Having 1 set of speaker terminals, the Electromotion cannot be bi-amp'ed, active or passive.
What you've referred to as "fools bi-amping", connecting 2 amplifiers to the same set of connectors at the Electromotion is ... foolish! You'll end up with blown amplifiers. Whoever suggested to bi-amp the Electromotion does not know what he's talking about!

Thanks Spike.

That being said... anyway to rewire the insides and add two posts? Just seems like a waste of amps to have two channels sitting there doing nothing.

osha7677 said:

anyway to rewire the insides and add two posts?

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If you open them up and take some photos of the crossover and EQ sections, perhaps we can offer some suggestions. I would want to add two pairs of good terminals, rather than the goofy spring-loaded things ML stuck on there...

Perhaps the crossover can be split and speaker binding posts added to the bottom panel if there's enough space.

projectormovielover said:

The design flaw I mention is not putting even a single set of binding posts on the speakers. I cannot connect nothing but my garbage speaker cables up to them so tell me thats a good idea?

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Perhaps a quick peek at the speaker before purchasing it would alleviate this kind of problem?

Also, you forget (or are unaware) that the targeted demographic for that model is not the audiophile type, but rather the plug and play type; push the wire into the spring thing. Honestly, this "I can't stand the lack of binding posts" thing is unreasonable, like if I were to begin complaining that my Vistas don't have an amplifier for the woofer. You know those D-class amplifiers are only like 5 bucks tops. Stupid design flaw! The Vantage has an amplifier.

Pretty silly, huh?

Just saying...

InterMechanico said:

Perhaps a quick peek at the speaker before purchasing it would alleviate this kind of problem?

Also, you forget (or are unaware) that the targeted demographic for that model is not the audiophile type, but rather the plug and play type; push the wire into the spring thing. Honestly, this "I can't stand the lack of binding posts" thing is unreasonable, like if I were to begin complaining that my Vistas don't have an amplifier for the woofer. You know those D-class amplifiers are only like 5 bucks tops. Stupid design flaw! The Vantage has an amplifier.

Pretty silly, huh?

Just saying...

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Exactly! Not a design flaw, but an intentional decision based on the targeted market. If you care about details and want a top quality product, then don't waste your time and money on entry level components. If you want to cheap out on an entry level product, then don't complain when it lacks the quality of the more expensive models.

Not to stir the pot further on the posts debate, but in my mind putting a second set of posts on this "entry level" model does make sense.

Plug and play people are more likely to run it off a receiver without using a separate amp. In fact, ML says part of the advantage of the electromotion is that it can be run off a receiver. Many receivers (including mine) allow for bi-amping if you are just doing a 5.1 setup.

Entry level... understood. But how much extra would it really cost to make it bi-amp ready? I'm thinking less than 40 bucks. Considering it has a panel and then a cone woofer this seems to make even more sense.

Aside from all of that, I wouldn't call buying $1000 towers "cheaping out"... and I think that is the point some people have here regarding the posts in general. For that money there are some basics that should come included. I don't buy a 3 series BMW expecting cloth seats just because it is entry level. Its an expensive piece of machinery, and has certain things standard across the brand because it is an expensive brand.

osha7677 said:

Not to stir the pot further on the posts debate, but in my mind putting a second set of posts on this "entry level" model does make sense.

Plug and play people are more likely to run it off a receiver without using a separate amp. In fact, ML says part of the advantage of the electromotion is that it can be run off a receiver. Many receivers (including mine) allow for bi-amping if you are just doing a 5.1 setup.

Entry level... understood. But how much extra would it really cost to make it bi-amp ready? I'm thinking less than 40 bucks. Considering it has a panel and then a cone woofer this seems to make even more sense.

Aside from all of that, I wouldn't call buying $1000 towers "cheaping out"... and I think that is the point some people have here regarding the posts in general. For that money there are some basics that should come included. I don't buy a 3 series BMW expecting cloth seats just because it is entry level. Its an expensive piece of machinery, and has certain things standard across the brand because it is an expensive brand.

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osha7677, I'm not suggesting that the lack of screw type binding posts on the EM is due to them being a "cheap" loudpeaker, but rather so that they will be easy to install and use. In fact, I would suggest that since the spring type connectors are a "one off" item, they probably required new tooling in the plant and subsequently cost more than a basic set of binding posts.

Like Rich said in the beginning, it's probably not worth rearranging the back of your EM's just to Bi-Amp them. Try them out the way they are for a month or two. If after that period of time you feel that you need more power, consider buying a seperate power amplifier for your front channels.

I don't think you cheaped out on the EM's at all. You'll get a lot of enjoyment from them, and $2000.00 is a lot of money. (3 series beamers come standard with cloth seats; it's nice cloth though )
I assume that you were unaware of the difference when you purchased the speakers, which is to say that it wasn't a concern you had then, but have now. Take some time to get used to them before you make yourself unhappy with them.

Truth be told... it is mostly a matter of me hating to see two viable channels on my reciever go to waste. And my living room does not lend itself to a 7.1 setup.

Maybe I should have gone with a 5.1 channel receiver then. But the SC-72 is the least expensive Pioneer that has the class D3 amps, and has a full set of amp-outs.

No bother... I am sure i will eventually get a separate amp for the ESLs... but then I will be wasting 4 channels on the receiver!

osha7677 said:

Aside from all of that, I wouldn't call buying $1000 towers "cheaping out"... and I think that is the point some people have here regarding the posts in general. For that money there are some basics that should come included. I don't buy a 3 series BMW expecting cloth seats just because it is entry level. Its an expensive piece of machinery, and has certain things standard across the brand because it is an expensive brand.

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You have to view my comment relative to the specific market we are talking about. Buying any BMW wouldn't be regarded as "cheaping out", but within the specific market of BMW cars, choosing to buy the most basic model vs. one of the higher end models with all the options is indeed cheaping out related to that specific context. The point is that you don't buy the least expensive model in a lineup and then complain that it doesn't have all the bells and whistles of the higher end models.

The EM was a breakout product because it performs at a sonic quality level comparable to the higher end products, but at a much more reasonable price point (the next speaker up in the range sells for $3000 more!) In order to offer that kind of value, ML must have ways of differentiating their higher end products. Otherwise, they would kill their own market for the higher end speakers.

osha7677 said:

Not to stir the pot further on the posts debate, but in my mind putting a second set of posts on this "entry level" model does make sense.

Plug and play people are more likely to run it off a receiver without using a separate amp. In fact, ML says part of the advantage of the electromotion is that it can be run off a receiver. Many receivers (including mine) allow for bi-amping if you are just doing a 5.1 setup.

Entry level... understood. But how much extra would it really cost to make it bi-amp ready? I'm thinking less than 40 bucks. Considering it has a panel and then a cone woofer this seems to make even more sense.

Aside from all of that, I wouldn't call buying $1000 towers "cheaping out"... and I think that is the point some people have here regarding the posts in general. For that money there are some basics that should come included. I don't buy a 3 series BMW expecting cloth seats just because it is entry level. Its an expensive piece of machinery, and has certain things standard across the brand because it is an expensive brand.

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Wow, I cannot help but to jump in. There is a difference between bi-amping and biwiring. Your receiver allows for bi-wiring meaning you will draw a set of wires from speaker A and another from speaker B outs. Your terminal A and B share the same amp. By bi-wiring, it is debatable to notice any improvements.

As has been mentioned by others, if you are able to return the EMS, do so and get the Theos and then you should buy a seperate power amp (4 channels at least) to drive them in a true bi-amped configuration. Only then will you notice a differnce in sound qulaity.