"Warm musical sound" and another little question.

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jmstpierre

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Hi all,

Well, I have had my ethos for a few months now , running of my Yamaha receiver (rxa2020)until I saved up a bit of cash in order to buy decent gear to make them justice.
I am after a more of a warmer sound, if this makes sense. I have listen to the ethos with some linn, luxman class a amps, and a few more brands.
Don t worry, I am not going to ask you what amp I should get or what brand.
I was always under the impression that the amp, being the last component before the speakers would have the most influence on the sound, but over the last months I started changing my opinion on that view, and starting to think that may be source and pre have the bigger impact on the overall tonal characteristics.
What is the general point of view on this topic. If I am wanting a warmer sound, should I definitely start looking for source/pre first than worry about amp or vice versa.
To be honest, a few months ago I also bought a naim uniti qute which is a streamer, amp and dac combined, and this little box absolutely rocks, in every way.
as streamer it s genius so is it s interface, the dac is great and the modest naim 30W amp is awesome. It drives my bookshelves speakers to high spl without strain.
Needless to say, that I am probably go the naim Nd5xs streamer for the ethos.
But for pre and amp m not yet decided, so reverting back o original question, how important is the pre in a system compared to the power amp.
The only thing that worries me with an expensive pre is that I see it as bait of a waiste of money and capabilities, as I d only be using on input on the pre as the nd5xs, is not only a streamer, but also a dac, so, only one output going into the pre.
However, if it turns out that the pre and source probably play more on the tonal balance then I guess I will invest in a quality pre and not so much on power amp.

Second little question:
I recently saw an add for a pair of used summit (not x) with new xstat panel for a very good price from a dealer trade in section and wondering if there would be a major improvement over my new generation ethos.

I hope to read from you soon with heaps of recommendations,
Sincerely yours
Jean
 
I'd keep your Ethos because with used panels you don't know what you're getting. I haven't heard the Ethos, but they are not too far away from the Summit in the range to worry about in my opinion, which is why I say what I do. If you go the Summit you could be getting a pair of speakers which are better in some ways, worse in others, but from a smoker's house, or someone with kids who has strewn butter down the panels. Who knows? That's the risk. Now we've got that out of the way - a warmer sound?

Personally I have never liked valve amps with MLs - I love them with many other speakers, but with MLs? Nup, they haven't done it for me. Although I will say that the ARC VT60 was a very close contender when I bought my Classe.

So for me - I'd be looking for a warmer sounding transistor amplifier (Classe is renowned for warm sound, but so are many others as you have already auditioned, particularly Class A amps) and combine this with a valve preamp. Try a Pass and Krell if you haven't already.

Now - that's exactly what I have in my system so it is totally biased, but it may well just put you on the right track. You might end up with something totally different, but in the same vane? Exciting journey ahead!
 
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Hi mate,
Thanks for the advice, they did looked interesting and the idea of owning a pair of summit did seem appealing. I noticed them on the audio connection website.
I did not even consider tubes pre or power amps to be honest. I was once told by a dealer ( that did not sell any tube gear admittedly) that owning tubes was a bit like owning a vintage car and required a lot of maintenance. That did kind of spooked me out a little..:)
The naim nd5xs has the ability to control volume on a naim pre amp via the n-stream app ( fabulous interface in my opinion), so I might looked into some naim pre, but the ne5xs is not cheap already, so adding another naim component really takes a chunk of the amp and cable budget.
Will definitely try some valves pre and even may be power amp to see what they bring/add to the sound.
Is it a case of a little is good but more is not always better. Valve pre and power = too relaxed sound.?
Actually, while I think of it, would the power cable for the ethos have any major influence considering it s only for the low end. I have invested in a decent Nordst power cable for the naim qute and yes it did make a big difference, but here wear talking about a amp, streamer,dac...
Regards
Jean
 
Jean,

Unfortunately, everything matters (room, room treatments, cables, amp, pre, source, PLC, speaker location, speaker azimuth, etc.).

All impact the sonic character of your system to one degree or another.

Surprising how a minor change in speaker location can have a huge impact on tonality.

Good luck.

GG
 
If you're considering the Naim ND5-XS and a pre-amp, I'd suggest looking into the Naim NAC-N172 XS. Basically, a pre-amp with streaming capability. The advantage with this unit is that you're keeping the signal path as short as possible.

Link to Naim NAC-N172 XS
 
I just bought a new set of Theos. If I had a chance to bum to Summits for the same price or even a little more I would jump on it. That's not saying new gens are bad by any means, I just think an older "top of the line" would be an upgrade from a new gen mid-level.
 
Hi all,

Indeed I believe that all components contribute to a certain level on the overall tonal balance of the system, including accoustics of a room ( which i have professionally treated by viccoustics)but I am now thinking that some have a bit more influence over it and slowly starting to think that pre and source may be a good starting point. For years I always thought as the amp having the major influence as being the last component.

Spike, m glad you mentioned the naim nac172xs, as this was exactly what I had in mind and it fitted with what I needed, however, this is also, because of it, that I am thinking that the pre and source have the bigger influence on sound.
To clarify, I went to the naim dealer and auditioned (not able to lug my ethos with me, so listened to quad speakers)the NAC 172 xs with a nap 250-2. It was great but can not afford the 250-2 so this was swapped for another amp, the nap 200 and sound lost a bit of it s warmth. Upon saying that to the dealer he then decided to hook up the nd5xs,NAC 202 with nap 200.
Whoaaaaaaa. Highs were clean, no sign of harshness even when pushed high, mid had a nice warmth to it. Bass was not as strong as the 250-2 but does not matter too much as ethos have there one powered woofers.
The nd5xs and NAC 202, did really change the tonal balance,more than the power amp in the end, hence me really having to rethink everything :).
I believe that the nd5xs can control the volume of the aim pre amp so that suits me even better. As for the naim power amp, m not sure it will deliver the goods with the ethos, not sure how stable it is. According to naims website, it states that it s stable down to 2 ohms for long period of time.
Worst case, I can always add another brand of power amp, may be even tubes if I want more warmth.

Coolcobramatt,
When I saw the summit for sale at $8000, I almost jumped at getting them. It was very tempting.
What stopped me, is that I was able to audition them and compared to the ethos and afraid I would regret my decision.
I originally had bought a pair of theos and intended in getting a sub, but wife was not exactly happy, so talked to the dealer and it was decided that he would buy the Theo's back from me as he need a demo pair and me only forking out only a little more for the ethos. So going for 3rd pair of speakers in less than a year, my wife would see red..
I would have loved to go for months, but decided it was better to treat the room which cost me around $4000 to do than spending money on better speakers and not getting the best out of them.

Regards
 
Hi all,


Worst case, I can always add another brand of power amp, may be even tubes if I want more warmth.
Regards

I'll just step in here to save some tears later on.

You need to buy components that work well together to suit your needs. It's not just a case of "adding something (anything) tubed" to add warmth. You can't diddle with sound in that way.

I've heard many a valve amplifier that sounds "cooler" than some transistor designs. And every component has its sonic signature, which is a eminently complex musical signature - not just "warm or cool", so adding something later on to fix one problem may only create another whole different problem.

So for where you are - you've got a great pair of speakers - work backwards.

Choose a power amplifier first - one which is capable of driving them to your satisfaction, and can keep control of them, and one of course with a sonic signature you like.

Then choose a preamp to make the whole system sing, bearing in mind that the preamp-power amp interface will also be affected by what preamp you choose. That is, a fantastic preamp that works well with one amplifier might sound terrible with a different one. That's just the way it is. So you might end up with a valve one or you might not, but only you can decide that.
 
Those Summits at Audio Connection will be a really good buy for someone who needs a pair of electrostatics for a large room. I saw them after they replaced the panels, and they cleaned up nicely. The cabinet is a beautiful black ash finish with nice grain. I preferred the sound of the Montis, so they weren't an option for me.
 
Edwinr
Thanks for your reply and advice. Well, my room is fairly large measuring 6.5mlong x 5mwide with 3m ceilings. Plus it s an open design, the front wall is only a 3/4 wall measuring 1.7m high which gives into the kitchen, and on the right side it s the dining room and foyer entry only separated from the room by a set of 2 steps, so I guess, my 5m wide room, theatrically increases to 8.5 m long.
One of the reason I wanted the summit was for the extra bass and possibly the better integration between panel and woofer, but I am pretty happy with the new generation ML.

Amey01,
Once again thanks for your advice. I know it s not as simple as combining a good, source,a good pre and a good amp to make the system good. Shame it does not work this way...
I listened to the ethos with linn streamer and luxman class a amp and I could not stand it. Far too much highs. System had lost it s boogie factor. Though sometime I wonder if the point of owning ML is not for resolution and details more than boogie factor.
I take it you may have been disappointed a few times?
I just find it a bit hard to go and audition and try out gear. Needless to say that home auditions are almost impossible.

Regards
 
I wanted the summit

Aaah - those are those Summits at Audioconnection with new panels ! That might change things, but as I haven't heard the Ethos then I'm not sure.....


Amey01,
Once again thanks for your advice. I know it s not as simple as combining a good, source,a good pre and a good amp to make the system good. Shame it does not work this way...
I listened to the ethos with linn streamer and luxman class a amp and I could not stand it. Far too much highs. System had lost it s boogie factor. Though sometime I wonder if the point of owning ML is not for resolution and details more than boogie factor.
I take it you may have been disappointed a few times?
I just find it a bit hard to go and audition and try out gear. Needless to say that home auditions are almost impossible.

Unfortunately, no it's not as simple as just combining good equipment. No - I haven't been disappointed at all - but I have certainly auditioned components I thought would sound good but didn't. Fortunately I have learnt the lessons before I outlayed the money - something which I am trying to pass on.

The only time I've been disappointed was when I tried to save some money and came home with a Rotel 1090 amplifier. I knew it didn't suit. I thought I could stand it but I was wrong. It lasted less than 24 hours in my system, but fortunately Audioconnection gave me a full credit and I bought the Classe!
 
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Speaking of a 'warmer' sound, I recently installed a pair of Merlin Audio (Naquadria) Fire Blade mono bloc tube amplifiers in my system. This amplifiers are driving my Montis speakers. The preamp is a custom passive preamp, designed specifically to run the mono bloc amplifiers.

For some reason, I expected the Fire Blades to be brighter. But surprisingly, they are quite laid back. All the information is there, but they are exceptionally smooth. The Fire Blades are running in Triode mode which gives them about 60 watts per channel - more than enough power for my medium sized room. The amplifier's builder (Bill Crampton) said he'd change the amplifier's operation to ultra linear mode (about 120 watts per channel) which will give more power and maybe some punch in the upper frequencies if I a brighter presentation.

So jmstpierre, it sounds like I have a more laid back option which might be what you're looking for. How much do you want to spend? I didn't pay anywhere near what people might think because I bought the amplifiers 'pre-loved' but serviced and fitted with brand new 6550 tubes. If you want details, I can send you a private message.
 
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Amey01, the Summits at Audio Connection are fitted with the brand new Summit X panels. They were asking $8000, but I heard they might take less.

The original owner didn't look after them. The original panels were covered in a sticky residue which the dealer couldn't remove by vacuuming - that's why they changed the panels.
 

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