Am I Underpowering My ML's?

My setup is as follows:
Front L/R - Vantages
Center - Stage
Surrounds -FX2
Integrated Amp - Arcam AVR 400 - RMS 8ohms (90w x 7 ch) (130w x 2ch)

I have never really been quite happy with the output of the stage. It sounds thin and boxy. The vantages sound pretty good, but lack mids, and the surrounds do fine as effects channels. My question is am I underpowering my ML's? How much improvement would I see from a descent amp? I am considering a used Krell KAV 3250 rated at 8ohms 250w per channel doubling into 500w at 4 ohms. Does anyone think this would be a good option? I appreciate any opinions. Thanks!

rwhicker said:

My setup is as follows:
Front L/R - Vantages
Center - Stage
Surrounds -FX2
Integrated Amp - Arcam AVR 400 - RMS 8ohms (90w x 7 ch) (130w x 2ch)

I have never really been quite happy with the output of the stage. It sounds thin and boxy. !

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if there is one thing Logan's DO NOT DO is sound 'boxy' ....therefore something is drastically wrong in your set up......amp..yeah maybe, room acoustics.. I'm willing to bet yours are 'less than stellar', your source... another good possibility.

You really need to tell us more !!

I am sure my room acoustics are not great. I currently do not have any acoustic panels, but plan on adding them in the near future. The only speaker I am disappointed in is the center channel. At moderate volumes the dialogue is soft and the speaker sounds small. At louder levels the speaker starts to open up and sound much better. When I contacted ML they suggested I supply more power, thus the reason I am looking at amps. The source is anOoppo BDP-105. Hope this helps. Thanks!

rwhicker said:

At moderate volumes the dialogue is soft and the speaker sounds small. At louder levels the speaker starts to open up and sound much better.

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as it should.......but if your present integrated requires large amounts of atenuation then perhaps an alternative amp would prove more suitable.

Stage is probably as good as dedicated center speaker can be. However it sticks out of the bunch of big electrostats quite clearly when 5.1 plays.
What you are describing is sounds quite familiar: play some dialog and stick your head/ear behind your stage and check if panel sound fine. While listening from front of the speaker is rather difficult to tell if panel is working or not.

Many consider Arcam to be of the best AVR's on the market.

Don't quite understand.

In any event and all things being equal, more power is better.

GG

I wonder if you have set your centre channel size to "small" on the Arcam settings. If so, you are cutting it out from the lower frequencies. I have a Matinee and it is set to "large" and sounds excellent. Indeed, you will realize a great improvement if you use the Krell driving your Vantages thus freeing up the Arcam to only do centre and surround duties. Although the Arcam is a very fine receiver, it will have difficulties powering up the very current-thirsty Vanatges and Stage.

I temporarily move my Vantages into the exact configuration (AVR400/BDP105) while trouble-shooting a recent issue w/both panels. While Arcam holds its own in the receiver department, my Krell FBI absolutely crushes at all volumes with incredible detail and bass, magic. I initially paired the Vantages w/a Krell S300i several years ago, then moved on to a Simaudio i7, followed by a McIntosh MC452, and finally back to Krell.

Gordon Gray said:

Many consider Arcam to be of the best AVR's on the market.

Don't quite understand.

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Pretty simple, really. 90w x 7 channels is simply not going to cut it. You need several hundred watts of dedicated power to the Vantages to get the most out of them.

More power is not going to make the stage sound better at low volumes. Something is probably wrong in either positioning or AVR configuration.

From what I have read, the Arcam (integrated) is a top notch receiver. I would first turn of all processing and test music and see if that sounds right. You can play with the Vantage woofer knob and see if that changes anything....if bass is high, turn that down.

Then I'd play with the multi-speaker settings, keep it conservative..aka all speakers large, sub filling in everything, etc.

The Vantages have a powered woofer and have good sensitivity (92db?), so I wouldn't think power should be the issue...of course more power is always better.

The Stage....more power implies louder listening levels...so it doesn't make sense that if you want lower listening levels to require more power. I see similar issue with the Passage I have running...at low volume, they sound good, but you really need to turn them up to hear the magic. I have read that to be the case for what I have.

Maybe someone with the Stage can pipe in and tell us what they see?

Anyhow..hope this helps.

Let me throw my two cents in. I think Dave hit the nail with the room acoustics advice. When I moved into my new house, my Aerius sounded very thin, anemic and had zero bass. A couple of GIK Tri traps in the front corner made all the difference in the world. The speakers immediately sounded twice their size and the bass output was excellent. All of the other advice is sound, too.

Thank you all for the feedback. It is very much appreciated as I am new to all this. Here is some additional details as well as a few more questions.

The stage is set to large in the AVR and is sitting on top of my media cabinet underneath my display, angled slightly upward towards the listening position, approximately 1.5 feet away from the back wall. The panel is powered as the blue light is lit on the back of the stage.

I am quite happy with the vantages, but I would like to get a bit more clarity if possible. I am assuming the acoustic panels will help tighten up everything by reducing reflection.

I am going to try the 3 channel krell amp driving the front 3 channels next week and see if there are any acoustic improvements other than db level. I will report back my results.

When connecting the arcam to the krell my only option is single ended interconnects with the xlr shorting pins installed. Is this going to be issues? They will only be 1m runs.

I'm pretty sure you'll hear a (big) difference having your fronts driven by a separated power amp. Even better, drive them with separated monoblocks but that's for later. The receiver should be fine driving the rears. I dont think converting RCA ICs to XLR would be an issue.

To improve your center channel performance, I'd recommend the following:

- set it to 'Small' as no, and repeat NO ML center should run as large. Even my super-mondo-huge custom center (see my sig) is run as small with crossover at 80hz.
- Absorb all the rear wave energy from the Stage by placing absorptive materials behind it.

Start with some rolled up towels or thick quilted bedspreads and you'll be amazed at the change.

As other have said more power is better, so the plan for a 3ch Krell is a good one.

JonFo said:

To improve your center channel performance, I'd recommend the following:

- set it to 'Small' as no, and repeat NO ML center should run as large. Even my super-mondo-huge custom center (see my sig) is run as small with crossover at 80hz.
- Absorb all the rear wave energy from the Stage by placing absorptive materials behind it.

Start with some rolled up towels or thick quilted bedspreads and you'll be amazed at the change.

As other have said more power is better, so the plan for a 3ch Krell is a good one.

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How about when using a Motif? How is the back wave being handled with that design?

Boris said:

How about when using a Motif? How is the back wave being handled with that design?

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The Motif actually has a built-in rear wave absorber. it is a multi-layered construction (I saw the components and composition during our factory tour in '07) designed to progressively absorb highs through mid-bass (well as much as one can in a 1/4").

So Motif owners are OK, as are Logos owners. However, Logos owners would benefit by adding an absorptive sandwich a-la Motif to their Logos. I had a Logos, and it sure could have used that.

BTW- the recommendation to use towels or blankets is just as a test phase. Once you've confirmed the absorption works well, then creating a more esthetically pleasing sound-trap is the next step.

JonFo said:

To improve your center channel performance, I'd recommend the following:

- set it to 'Small' as no, and repeat NO ML center should run as large. Even my super-mondo-huge custom center (see my sig) is run as small with crossover at 80hz.
- Absorb all the rear wave energy from the Stage by placing absorptive materials behind it.

Start with some rolled up towels or thick quilted bedspreads and you'll be amazed at the change.

As other have said more power is better, so the plan for a 3ch Krell is a good one.

Click to expand...

JonFo, I have to respectfully disagree. By setting the centre speaker to small, you are depriving it from its potential. We all have been told to set it to small and let the sub handle the low frequencies. But there are above-80 HZ fequencies that would not make it to the centre channel if set to small.

I A/B'ed the two scenarios and settled with large setting. Unless you are playing the soundtrack at ear-bleeding levels, I would stick with large especially with a capable ML ESL centre speaker.

Northy said:

JonFo, I have to respectfully disagree. By setting the centre speaker to small, you are depriving it from its potential. We all have been told to set it to small and let the sub handle the low frequencies. But there are above-80 HZ fequencies that would not make it to the centre channel if set to small.

I A/B'ed the two scenarios and settled with large setting. Unless you are playing the soundtrack at ear-bleeding levels, I would stick with large especially with a capable ML ESL centre speaker.

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The Stage can barely even play 80hz at whisper levels, let alone below it or loudly. All you're listening to is distortion by playing it full range.

I did say "above-80 HZ frequencies." Please read my post again.