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Thread: New Balanced Force 210 and 212 subs!

  1. #91
    Junior Member sandeep's Avatar
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    update: Ended up using Montis -10db profile. I found the midrange and high end frequency opens up after putting the montis sub to -10db. The Anthem A5 amp have more room to provide power to the ES panel, then the sub. The improvement in the low range was also better using the 212 instead of the montis sub.. more clear and defined. Changed the stock black cable of the 212 with isotek premiere , and the bass clarity improved a lot, including noticeable noise reduction.
     
    My System:
    Oppo BDP 105D, PrimaLuna Dialogue Premium Pre-Amp, Anthem A5 Amp,Rotel RMB-1075 Amp, Anthem AVM60 Pre/Pro, Martin Logan Montis,Stage X, EM-FX2, FX, Balancedforce 212 sub, Paradigm Sa-15R 8" ceiling speakers, JVC DLA-X700B, 130" screen,Van Den Hul The Name RCA & XLR and Magnum hybrid cables,ISOTek Evo3 Aquarius and premere, GIK Acoustics .

  2. #92
    Super User sleepysurf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sandeep View Post
    update: Ended up using Montis -10db profile. I found the midrange and high end frequency opens up after putting the montis sub to -10db. The Anthem A5 amp have more room to provide power to the ES panel, then the sub. The improvement in the low range was also better using the 212 instead of the montis sub.. more clear and defined. Changed the stock black cable of the 212 with isotek premiere , and the bass clarity improved a lot, including noticeable noise reduction.
    Same conclusion I reached with my Summits! However, I will continue "tweaking" in search of the ultimate SSS (speaker-sub-synergy)!
    Squeezebox Touch/Bel Canto DAC 3.5VB + Oppo BDP-95 > Conrad-Johnson CT5 preamp and Premier 350 amp > ML Expressions 13A. Dual ML BalancedForce 210 subs. Audience Au24e I/C's, speaker cable.
    Click here to see my entire sytem. Member of the Suncoast Audiophile Society.

  3. #93
    Junior Member sandeep's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sleepysurf View Post
    Same conclusion I reached with my Summits! However, I will continue "tweaking" in search of the ultimate SSS (speaker-sub-synergy)!
    Tip from Peter in this regard, while using custom filter Montis -10db and put the montis bass control to 0db or anything other then -10db.

    To make sure phase is correct on the sub as it relates to the Montis, have someone stay at the sub while you listen to lower frequency range of a male singer. While someone switches the phase switch you should hear the focus of that voice be more solid when the phase is in best setting. 90degree tends to be the most common. That will satisfy the timing issue.


    Peter Soderberg
    Western Regional Director
    My System:
    Oppo BDP 105D, PrimaLuna Dialogue Premium Pre-Amp, Anthem A5 Amp,Rotel RMB-1075 Amp, Anthem AVM60 Pre/Pro, Martin Logan Montis,Stage X, EM-FX2, FX, Balancedforce 212 sub, Paradigm Sa-15R 8" ceiling speakers, JVC DLA-X700B, 130" screen,Van Den Hul The Name RCA & XLR and Magnum hybrid cables,ISOTek Evo3 Aquarius and premere, GIK Acoustics .

  4. #94
    Super User sleepysurf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sandeep View Post
    To make sure phase is correct on the sub as it relates to the Montis, have someone stay at the sub while you listen to lower frequency range of a male singer. While someone switches the phase switch you should hear the focus of that voice be more solid when the phase is in best setting. 90 degree tends to be the most common. That will satisfy the timing issue...
    Sandeep, you should be able to use REW to objectively dial in the phase adjustment. Just measure a continuous pink noise RTA, and as you vary the phase dial, you'll see the bass output fluctuate around the Main/Sub crossover point. Adjust phase until you get the smoothest response at that point.
    Squeezebox Touch/Bel Canto DAC 3.5VB + Oppo BDP-95 > Conrad-Johnson CT5 preamp and Premier 350 amp > ML Expressions 13A. Dual ML BalancedForce 210 subs. Audience Au24e I/C's, speaker cable.
    Click here to see my entire sytem. Member of the Suncoast Audiophile Society.

  5. #95
    Junior Member sandeep's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sleepysurf View Post
    Sandeep, you should be able to use REW to objectively dial in the phase adjustment. Just measure a continuous pink noise RTA, and as you vary the phase dial, you'll see the bass output fluctuate around the Main/Sub crossover point. Adjust phase until you get the smoothest response at that point.
    Thanks, i did sweeps last night with Montis at 0db and found the best SPL still at 180 degree phase on the 212 I am preferring the montis at -10db and dealing the level up in 212 if i need to hear more power of the bass, this way the montis really shines at the midrange and above. I might go and listen to Anthem P2 mono design amp on the montis and see if i can hear better.
    My System:
    Oppo BDP 105D, PrimaLuna Dialogue Premium Pre-Amp, Anthem A5 Amp,Rotel RMB-1075 Amp, Anthem AVM60 Pre/Pro, Martin Logan Montis,Stage X, EM-FX2, FX, Balancedforce 212 sub, Paradigm Sa-15R 8" ceiling speakers, JVC DLA-X700B, 130" screen,Van Den Hul The Name RCA & XLR and Magnum hybrid cables,ISOTek Evo3 Aquarius and premere, GIK Acoustics .

  6. #96
    Junior Member Stefan_DR3's Avatar
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    I need to decide on getting a 212 or dual 210s. If I go single it has to go in the front left corner of the room due to size. If I go dual the preferred location is both units at the front of the room, near main speakers, below the screen. Is it bad to have the drive units firing at eachother? Example drawings in the ML user manual show both subs corner placed or placed on opposite side walls which I can't do.

  7. #97
    Super User Gordon Gray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sandeep View Post
    To make sure phase is correct on the sub as it relates to the Montis, have someone stay at the sub while you listen to lower frequency range of a male singer. While someone switches the phase switch you should hear the focus of that voice be more solid when the phase is in best setting. 90degree tends to be the most common. That will satisfy the timing issue.


    Peter Soderberg
    Western Regional Director
    Recently installed a REL T7i sub. Per REL, simply listen for the setting that provides the loudest, deepest bass from the sub to determine correct phase. Very easy to do with the REL, pretty simple and it works.

  8. #98
    Forum Administrator twich54's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan_DR3 View Post
    I need to decide on getting a 212 or dual 210s. If I go dual the preferred location is both units at the front of the room, near main speakers, below the screen.
    is that 'preferred' location for aesthetics or for actual performance / sound / EQ ?
    Dave

    System #79 - Analog is Alive and Well, if in doubt, click the link below !

    Click Here to see my System

  9. #99
    Junior Member Stefan_DR3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twich54 View Post
    is that 'preferred' location for aesthetics or for actual performance / sound / EQ ?
    Aesthetics and physical space limitation. I could put one at the back of the room but then one woofer would be aimed out an opening to the rest of the house (does that matter?).

    I prototyped the "dual front-sub" setup and posted my results (ARC quick measurements) in the ARC thread:
    http://www.martinloganowners.com/for...and-discussion

    It was definitely better than the one sub I am coming from. I regret now not trying the second sub at the back of the room before returning it.
    Last edited by Stefan_DR3; 11-30-2017 at 09:24 AM.

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by sandeep View Post
    Thanks, i did sweeps last night with Montis at 0db and found the best SPL still at 180 degree phase on the 212 I am preferring the montis at -10db and dealing the level up in 212 if i need to hear more power of the bass, this way the montis really shines at the midrange and above. I might go and listen to Anthem P2 mono design amp on the montis and see if i can hear better.
    I'm experimenting with custom filters for my dual 210's to match up with my Spires.

    I downloaded the -10db filter to the 210's and set the 35hz knob on the Spires to -10db. However, I'm not sure how I should change the settings on the 210's. Currently, the 210's are set as follows:

    25Hz Level: 0db
    Low-Pass Filter: 35Hz
    Phase: 0 degrees

    I intend to run PBK on both 210's after I dial this in. Then, I'll run Audyssey.

    ML Spires Mains
    ML Stage X Center
    ML Balance Force 210 Subs (two)
    ML Motif X Surrounds

  11. #101
    Super User sleepysurf's Avatar
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    When you are using the custom BalancedForce Sub filters, the manual low pass filter is bypassed. The 25 Hz control is inactive during PBK measurement, but manually adjustable afterwards. Per the BF210 manual, set the Phase control to zero while measuring, then manually adjust after for optimal blending with your Spires. I use XTZ Room Analyzer Pro measurements while "dialing in" phase for the smoothest response.

    However, even using the custom BF Sub filters and PBK/ARC doesn't necessarily give you the optimal integration between Main speakers and Subs, because PBK/ARC can't measure/EQ the Main woofers AND Subs simultaneously. Audyssey measures the whole system, so (theoretically) could offer additional improvement. However, there are still lots of permutations possible. For example, is it better to run your Subs as Dual Mono, or Stereo Pair? I'm still vacillating on this!
    Last edited by sleepysurf; 01-01-2018 at 06:59 PM. Reason: Clarification
    Squeezebox Touch/Bel Canto DAC 3.5VB + Oppo BDP-95 > Conrad-Johnson CT5 preamp and Premier 350 amp > ML Expressions 13A. Dual ML BalancedForce 210 subs. Audience Au24e I/C's, speaker cable.
    Click here to see my entire sytem. Member of the Suncoast Audiophile Society.

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