Surround System with existing ML Speakers - how to build and choose components?

Searched the Forum database for a surround system configuration and decided to start a thread.

I have two Monolith III on a Luxman C-03 and M-03 Amp (2x 200 W / 8 ohms) intended as front, two Scripts as rear and a Cinema as center.

How do I create a surround system?

A Behringer 2496 Ultra Drive (actually, two would be required) and the DBX equivalent have been suggested elsewhere. Can an off-the-shelf surround receiver (like a Harman Kardon AVR 256 at 110W per two channels driven) be used to drive the rear Scripts and the Cinema center?
And how do I hook up the analogue signal audio in such an AVR 256 to feed the front Monoliths via the Luxman C-03 / M-03? The HK manual states that the Tape OUT (needed to feed the pre-amp and amp Luxman C-03/M-03) will only output analogue signals when an analogue source is connected (rules out any HDMI, like a DVD connection).

The Behringer manual states their digital signal inputs to be in S/PDIF or AES/EBU format - how does that relate to HDMI and how can this be realized with what cabling?

Any suggestion different from above would be appreciated!
Thanks.
Arthur

Hi Arthur, sounds like you are ready to embark on quite the adventure.

I've been down the road of active crossovers, bi-amping and all that with Monoliths to create one of the best surround systems I've ever heard.

It is not for the faint of heart, but yields great results. So let's tackle your questions:

To create a surround system, you first need a surround pre-amp with surround decoding capabilities and sources for surround content. So first question is: what content do you want to fee the system and from what players?

Your C-03 is stereo only, so its out of contention.

As for creating active crossovers for the Monoliths, either the Behringer or the better DBXs will do the trick, but they are complex to set up and require a measurement system. Do you have an audio measurement rig or are willing to obtain one (not expensive, about $300 to $500 in parts)?

The digital inputs for Behringer or DBXs assume you do volume control downstream, so that's not really an option unless you can control volume levels on ALL amp channels through some signaling system. None are currently available that I'm aware of.

Take a look at my system for an example of what it takes. I've iterated over the years, and had simpler versions documented in my system thread. But even at their simplest, it's quite complex.

Hi Jonathan,

Thank you for the informative comments and the link to your system. This then took me a while to digest; I always thought my systems are complex, but I succumb ... ergo only now my answer. I need to study more.

If I find a way to attach a PDF file, I'll post two of my systems. I come from the days (or should I say 'years') of quadraphonic sound and all that analogue equipment around it. I am a hopeless case on Martin Logans, they are everywhere around my house! I finally gave a set of spare Monolith's to a friend of mine and got him hooked as well, with the result that I now have to mingle with 'the modern stuff', i.e. digital sound reproduction and I have to design his system. Ergo my thread.

From my setup, quadraphonic receivers are the sound decoders (Sansui 9001 and Pioneer QX 949) and then the signal is fed to individual amplifiers in order to control basic things like volume to drive each individual set of ML's. From the study of the likes of Tate, Fosgate, etc. sound processing equipment, I decided to build one of the systems around a Fosgate 3a, or its Harman Kardon AVP2 equivalent. For surround sound, I love it.

The system I am conceiving for my friend also contains a Fosgate in its AVP1 (just bought it) form to process sound before it gets fed to the individual amplifiers for the ML speakers. The original idea for the Behringer was to use it as a crossover bass/panel. When I studied the manual (I do when I get lost), I found out that you can do lots of things with them, a Fosgate equivalence sound processor and also building a 5.1 system for which they have pre-programmed tools and you can also build your own (cumbersome) multi-channel system.

He wants to view / listen to modern 3D movie stuff and its decoded sound (I am quite happy with CD-4 and QS), ergo one of the basic tasks is shape the sound as it comes off an HDMI digital stream.

An ingenious little device from e-video (US) breaks out the HDMI signal into its analogue sound parts and even goes 5.1 and 7.1 on decoded signals. Dead easy: HDMI in, RCA (cinch) out individually for all surround sound signals. Apparently (to be verified) it also outputs Lt and Rt that does contain all the information as well and you can decode it yourself. The box retails for $140 and we acquired two of them (after all, I want to play around with it also).

Now comes the tricky part: how to I get the sound processing (room shape with delays for different concert hall properties, etc.) into the Fosgate or, eventually, the amplifiers? I am still studying that portion. The Behringer can do it (it needs two with interconnect software for 5.1). I read up on the Dolby formats throughout the millennia and, my, is it ever confusing! One version only feeds mono to the Rears, then they limit the bandwidth to 8 kHz Rears but decode the two Rear streams into individual channel information, etc., etc.

Just as a teaser, I did install at his house one of my Marantz 4300 and use it to decode the quad signals and feed the results to his Luxman M-03 amplifiers for the Monoliths and Scripts so that the family can get used to the ML sound ...

I'll report on progress. If you have any more direct comments and loopholes I can avoid , please let me know.

Arthur

P.S. my system schematics exceeds the 68 kbyte upload file limit, so I'll have to see how I can get around that.

An ingenious little device from e-video (US) breaks out the HDMI signal into its analogue sound parts and even goes 5.1 and 7.1 on decoded signals. Dead easy: HDMI in, RCA (cinch) out individually for all surround sound signals. Apparently (to be verified) it also outputs Lt and Rt that does contain all the information as well and you can decode it yourself. The box retails for $140 and we acquired two of them (after all, I want to play around with it also).

Can you provide the company and model of this item? I'd like to convert html to rca audio too.

Separately, Decware makes a "Zen Ultra" six channel tube pre-amp for $2995.00 (factory direct), 6 separate channel level adjustments with a master volume control. Says it would be good for home theater 5.1, looks very interesting to me.

Arthur, if looking to set up a system that handles modern movie soundtracks (DTS-MA and Dolby TrueHD), you need a modern processor for that.
Ideally, a processor that takes HDMI in, has good processing (Denon and Marantz do that these days), and even better if it also includes a room corrector, such as Audyssey.

Any other approach will give lower-fidelity, be way more complex, and ultimately, not as effective as a modern AV pre-amp (or receiver).

Now, you still need an outboard crossover if you plan to do an active system, and that's still an option. The Behringers will do the job, but I still recommend DBX.

If you get an old DBX DriveRack 260, I can even send you the configuration files from my old Monolith setup as a starting point.

But before you go the active route, do you have an audio measurement system?

Please keep in mind that trying to do actives without measurements is like trying to build a wood coffee table without a tape measure or a square-edge. the results might not be right when you are done.

An ingenious little device from e-video (US) breaks out the HDMI signal into its analogue sound parts and even goes 5.1 and 7.1 on decoded signals. Dead easy: HDMI in, RCA (cinch) out individually for all surround sound signals. Apparently (to be verified) it also outputs Lt and Rt that does contain all the information as well and you can decode it yourself. The box retails for $140 and we acquired two of them (after all, I want to play around with it also).

Click to expand...

You are aware this is not really likely to work right?

These splitters just take the LPCM digital signals from the HDMI and convert them to analog using cheap (low-fi) D/A converters. They depend on the upstream devices (BluRay player for example) to do all the decoding of stuff like Dolby True HD into 8 ch LPCM and put that on the HDMI.
Note that only BluRay players will do that, a TV set-top box does not, it just sends whatever the channel is broadcasting, so of its dolby digital, then that bitstream is on the HDMI wire and the splitter can't decode that.

So now you have a bunch of low-fi analog signals to deal with, so you need a six or eight channel analog preamp to manage volume. Then you need to deal with speaker delays (assuming the device doing the decoding did not have speaker distance offsets, some don't some do). This all seems way more complex than needed and much lower quality results than alternatives.

My recommendation:

Invest in a modern pre-amp or receiver. Pick a price point and the folks here will help point you in the right direction.

My recommendation: Get a Denon 4311 receiver and use it as a pre-amp. One box solves all your needs, no extra cables, no problems. And if you have the money, the Denon AVP-A1 is the best multichannel preamp out there for under $10,000.

BTW- since you are into quad and all that, you need to know that the Dolby Music modes on modern AVRs are really good. Even old QS recordings play back in a 5.1 setup just great. I also was into Quad way back when (I was a teenager then, but talked my dad into a nice quad rig).