Enough Power?

[Spike]

JayGee,

An amp that can deliver 300 watts into 4 ohms is what should be your target. Martin Logan speakers require an amp with enough headroom to deliver the occasional 2 ohm highs so power output is not about loudness...it's headroom. Anything less would most likely be a disappointment.

You're telling Guitarist to look for a musical amp which is 150 watts into 8 ohms, double to 300 watts into 4 ohms, with enough power going into 2 ohms, AND budget friendly? Last time I looked at an amp satisfying those conditions depends on one's definition of "budget friendly"! A $2k budget might be "friendly" to me, but not for someone else, that's the point. For the benefit of the OP, will you also clarify what you mean by "anything less will be a disappointment"? Remember that his previous system consisted of ML ReQuests and Levinson gear AND that he is a musician so I assume that he knows what's he is looking for.

Spike

[Gordon Gray]

Best advice if the OP can do it.

Drive before you buy.

GG

[roberto]

Hola. I am going to copy MPS ..."Typical ML ESL would require 2-3W to play at 90dB SPL, so for 100dB you need 20-30W and for 110dB 200-300W per channel at rated load. These are maximum SPL values , listening to dynamic recording a headroom of average power x 10 would be nice"... if you want to play at disco level, you need a lot of power. The old tech of the ML stat panels require three times more power for about the same SLP 85dB to 90dB. With the CLXs, you do not need big power to drive them nicely, 50 Watts are good with great clean sound with tubes. I have a customer that were he is using a VTL in Triode Mode, and he gets only 70Watts out of 4 6550s output tubes. His sound is very, very nice!!! All depends of how loud do you want to listen your system, and on the other hand, because ML diaphragm is so big, it moves a lot of air, making this, no need to play your system loud, to have the right size of the instruments, and also the harmonic texture of the musical intruments. All, it is a matter of liking. Some of us, like big power, others, like clean sound. Power is not related with transparent and clean sound in our beloved musical world. Power is for playing loud, but keep in mind that with the new stat panels, to get 90dB of SPL you need only 3Watts!. Happy listening

[jmstpierre]

wow spike, thanks for your related thread, very informative.Are you some kind of audio engineer or work for ML to figure that out, . I am an electrcian,and at uni part time doing a degree in civil engineering and i would not have come up with that..
the other thing m a little confused is the dB rating.I can t really visualized what 90dB represents.What s the best way to know what 90dB sounds like. is it loud or low level listening?
regartds

[roberto]

Hola. Some time ago, with my SLP level meter, I measure from the 3 Rod at our National Theatre, our Symphonic Orchestra playing the 9th Symphony of Beethoven, and the highest reading was 93dB!!! Over 100 musicians playing at the same time, and that was what I got. Very interesting, right? The distance from the stage to the place that I was, about 30 feet/ 10meters. But a rock group in the same place, I measured 115dB!!! Happy listening!

[tsv_1]

wow spike, thanks for your related thread, very informative.Are you some kind of audio engineer or work for ML to figure that out, . I am an electrcian,and at uni part time doing a degree in civil engineering and i would not have come up with that..
the other thing m a little confused is the dB rating.I can t really visualized what 90dB represents.What s the best way to know what 90dB sounds like. is it loud or low level listening?
regartds

If you have a smart phone, there are a number of free SPL meter apps out there. As a point of reference, I'm listening to some relatively soft classical music right now here via my computer speakers (Corelli Sonatas). Max dB reading is about 75dB here in the nearfield.

Here's a decent little primer on SPLs and related information that you might find useful.

[Spike]

wow spike, thanks for your related thread, very informative.Are you some kind of audio engineer or work for ML to figure that out, .

Thanks for the comment. Engineer - Yes. Audio related - no. I'm just a hobbyist.

the other thing m a little confused is the dB rating.I can t really visualized what 90dB represents.What s the best way to know what 90dB sounds like. is it loud or low level listening?

Get one of these SPL app and see for yourself what 90db sounds like:
SPL Meter App from iTunes Not bad for $1!
If you don't have an iPhone, then you can look up "SPL meter" on Amazon.com.

[Guitarist]

Thanks to everyone who responded. I think I'll go for the Parasound Halo A51--I know a lesser powered amp would always create a question in the back of my mind: "How much better would more power sound?"! And thanks, Spike, for assuming I know what I want! My Levinson No.334 amp drove the Requests just fine, but it's in another universe of quality compared to my Sony receiver! I won't be able to purchase a new amp right away (I have the money, just not "permission"!), but I'll report back when I do.

[roberto]

I have to thanks too to Spike and tsv_1. You made me to go back to School. But, to understand a little better regarding power, just go to Best Buy or any store that sells those portable CD-FM players and you can read 2000 Watts of power or even 3000 Watts of pure power (MPO=music power output), and we all know how they sound. With all the respect to a person who might have a Sanyo or simiilar power amplifier, there is a kind of sense of rule: you get for what you did pay. This does not means that the most expensive goods are the best, but in a general rule, if you are going to spend $ 3000.00 for a power amplifier, then, you should listen to the most brands on that category of price, and choose the one that you liked most. Yes, all amps sound different. But quality remains at this pricing point. All the manufactures are offering the best that they can, because they need to sell the goods. If you do not like what you are listening, then you do not buy it, right? Read a lot regarding and about the good that you are thinking to buy, and also, listen to it! If you liked it, then get it. Just because I say it is ok, does not means that you should like it too. Trust your ears! You are the one who is going to live listening to it. I wish a very happy listening to all!

[eknuds01]

It's a matter of context. If you have big speakers, a big room, and want to listen to music at a moderately loud level - you'll need an amp that can throw out some current, especially if the source material demands a swing to a lower ohm regime.

If you have a small home office and like to have Patricia Barber playing at 85dB - an integrated amp with 50W may be more than sufficient.

There are some many options with amps, it's almost a "paralysis by analysis" type of problem.

Erik

[shakham]

Thanks to everyone who responded. I think I'll go for the Parasound Halo A51--I know a lesser powered amp would always create a question in the back of my mind: "How much better would more power sound?"! And thanks, Spike, for assuming I know what I want! My Levinson No.334 amp drove the Requests just fine, but it's in another universe of quality compared to my Sony receiver! I won't be able to purchase a new amp right away (I have the money, just not "permission"!), but I'll report back when I do.

I didn't get a chance to respond, but I would have said the same thing. I don't think the numbers you are dealing with are in th realm of overkill and the extra headroom is nice .

[Spike]

I think I'll go for the Parasound Halo A51--I know a lesser powered amp would always create a question in the back of my mind: "How much better would more power sound?"!

Good choice going with the Halo A51. It's been circulated on various forum (audioasylum, avs forum, etc...) that the Halo xx1 series (A51, JC1) have better quality components than the xx2 (A52) or xx3 (A23) series. The circuitry are similar, designed by the legendary John Curl, but components differ.

[Hocky]

Frankly, I think that very few people could ever reliably pick out 2 competent amps that are not being pushed beyond their head room capabilities in a blind test. Most amps sound more similar than different when used in their limits and if they don't, they're poorly designed or broken. Differences definitely exist, but as long as they're capability of handling the load the speakers are giving them, they're subtle. When you start to explore the outer limits of the power cabilities of an amp or compare direct coupled amps with output transformer amps, you will find some differences for sure.

[tsv_1]

Frankly, I think that very few people could ever reliably pick out 2 competent amps that are not being pushed beyond their head room capabilities in a blind test. Most amps sound more similar than different when used in their limits and if they don't, they're poorly designed or broken. Differences definitely exist, but as long as they're capability of handling the load the speakers are giving them, they're subtle. When you start to explore the outer limits of the power cabilities of an amp or compare direct coupled amps with output transformer amps, you will find some differences for sure.

Very much in line with Roger Sander's mindset... it's only when operating amps outside their designed operating range that they begin to show significant individuality. That said, his other assertion (which I completely agree with) is that people routinely underpower their speakers. Proper recreation of transient peaks takes a lot of power (not to mention proper supply design to quickly recover from those peaks).

[Bernard]

Same thing for me. My 80w(8ohm)/120w(4ohm) Monarchy amp sounds a lot better than my Emotiva 200w(8ohm)/350w(4ohm) amp. Sound quality depends more on the amp design and power supply than the mere wattage/power rating.

Me too. I used to have a tube 50W/ch Copland driving my MLs, and borrowed a SS 100W/ch Copland from my ML dealer. The loan was for a week, but I took back the amp after 2 days. The dealer laughed when he saw me coming back with the loaner (he likes tubes too). OTOH my 100 W/ch tube ARC monoblocks blew away the Copland, on more than just headroom.