Why are ML so hard on amplifiers??

Hi all,
This may seem like a very stupid question, but why are ML so hard on amps. Are all ML hard to drive!? Is it safe to assume that those that have an active woofer are easier to drive as the amp only has to feed the panel?.
Regards
John

Read this: http://www.martinlogan.com/learn/electrostatic-speakers.php

it's a great explanation of how electrostatic speakers work and why an amplifier can struggle to drive them.

jmstpierre said:

Hi all,
This may seem like a very stupid question, but why are ML so hard on amps.

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not ALL are..........per Tom's suggestion ...read on !

Is it safe to assume that those that have an active woofer are easier to drive as the amp only has to feed the panel?.
Regards
John

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yes 'somewhat safe', current hybrid designs are much more user friendly, as 'Roberto' likes to say ...."it's quality watts" that matter. Room size, listening prefrences all weigh in. Bottom line here is that our M/L's are extremely revealing so wide bandwith, stable amplification given the impedence swings is mandatory.

hi guys,
thanks for the link.quite interestin read. i am indeed a beleiver in quality vs quantity, but there is a fine line between those two. m not sure a 10w tube will drive ML reasonably well, but i guess i could be wrong. love the sound of tubes but having one is a bit like owning a classic car, fair bit of maintenance involved.
on that same token, what is the lifespan of a ML speaker.Do they tend to be less effecient with age and loose their magic after a few years. i am hopoing to keep my ordered theos for at least 6 years, and also hope that they will still do the zebra wood as i can trick the wife and not tell her they are new speakers...
regards
john

Vacuum regularly ,keep them in reasonable dust free AC environments and you should get much longer than the 6 years you are looking for. More than 15 years is typical.


J

jmschnur said:

Vacuum regularly ,keep them in reasonable dust free AC environments and you should get much longer than the 6 years you are looking for. More than 15 years is typical.


J

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Yeah.. What he said.

Hi to you both and thanks again for advice.
Well that s good news about the aging of ML speakers. I guess, I will probably upgrade at some stage with something like the ethos as they have a zebra wood and wife won t even notice.however, I will only do so if there is a massive overall improvement over the theos and if I can find a demo pair from the dealer, but that s not for a few years.
Over the last 10 years, has there been a massive improvement in ML speakers? Beter efficiency, integration, or every new model/series is only marginally better than the last model?
Regards
John

jmschnur said:

More than 15 years is typical.

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signal tube...yes, power tube...no

twich54 said:

signal tube...yes, power tube...no

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Ha ha, Dave. He was asking about ML lifespan, not tube.

jmstpierre said:

Over the last 10 years, has there been a massive improvement in ML speakers? Beter efficiency, integration, or every new model/series is only marginally better than the last model?

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I would say it has been a mixed bag, really. They are smaller, lighter, and made less substantially now than they used to be. The sound of the panel hasn't really changed that much, except that they have become more efficient in their output and have been made smaller. Some feel the smaller panel is detrimental to the sound. Definitely they have done a better job of integrating the bass module with the panel. The sound is much more seamless between bass and upper frequencies. But overall, I would have to say that the improvements have been marginal. I own a pair of Ascents and a pair of Summits. I wouldn't say the Summits outshine the Ascents by a huge margin. They are a little more neutral and have better bass integration and the bass goes a little lower. But then, the Ascent wasn't even the top of the line for its generation (the Prodigy was). Many people feel the Prodigy was one of MLs best speakers ever and don't think the Summit is as good. Others prefer the Summit.

Hola. Mmmm just thinking loud, quality watts, how to tell? Just "trust your in your ears". Your ears will tell you if you like what you are listening or not. ML sound resolves it all, and it does it easy. This is good news, and bad. What I do, is, I listen what it is good, and like. I do not listen too much what I am not liking. Many times, it's just the type of music, you are not in the mood for it, or the system has a problem. There is not a perfect amp. But many amps are very well designed, and great to listen through ML. At the sweet spot, there is an open window for your mind. Yes, the sound is so transparent, that you can listen all the nuances that are into any kind of music or recording. The feeling of the musician(s) playing for you, there... in your own place. Even, the bad recordings, you find them that through ML, it is more "life-like". All is a matter of liking. Aslo, what I do like, not necessary must be your liking... but, at the end, we find ourselves, listening and enjoying all the goods that are out there, in the market place. Be happy with your own sound, and enjoy the wonderful music and the great musician(s). Yes, you can tell when you have in your system, driving any ML model with quality watts. Happy listening!

Rich said:

Ha ha, Dave. He was asking about ML lifespan, not tube.

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I knew that second Manhattan tasted 'extra' good !

I'd say the Logans are finicky, but not hard on amps. Finicky due to its wild impedance swing between 32 ohms (in the bass region of the panels) and 1 ohm at the high frequency. A lot of amps do not perform well with higher impedance load in the range of 16 - 32 ohms. They will push the Logan panels to make sound, but not music if they under-perform. Now, if you want to talk about speakers which are hard on amps, nothing comes close to the legendary "Amp-buster" Apogee Scintilla! The specs for the later models says... 1-ohm nominal! In their heyday (and even now), there are only a handful of amps which can handle these speakers without melting their internals! Take a look at their specifications stating 1 ohm impedance nominal!


And the flat impedance curve hovering around 2.5 - 4 ohms for the 4-ohm setting. For 1-ohm setting, the impedance curve is flat, hovering between 1 ohm and 2.5 ohm!

Me thinks that its silly and irresponsible to design an speaker whose nominal impedance is 1 ohms or less. What's the point? What does the speaker mfgr hope to prove?

Hola... it is the way that any electrostatic speakers impedance behavior. The ribbon is about the same as you can see it above. The impedance depends of the frequency... as an example, a conventional tweeter, as the frequency goes up, the impedance goes up too, on an electrostatic, drops like a brick. So, the low impedance is at very high frequency, where there is not too much music there (20KHz). Also it is very difficult for any MIC to record that frequency. But ML sound is one of the best of the world, right? So, you do not worry about specs, and enjoy your ML sound! Happy listening.

dmusoke said:

Me thinks that its silly and irresponsible to design an speaker whose nominal impedance is 1 ohms or less. What's the point? What does the speaker mfgr hope to prove?

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Silly and irresponsible? Really? To push the state of the art in speaker design? What a silly thing to say. What's the point? To produce an incredible-sounding speaker, of course! Stereophile had this to say about the Scintillas: "with the right electronics, placement, and musical material - it can be the most musically natural speaker I have ever heard, at any price." I daresay that is the point.

Rich said:

Silly and irresponsible? Really? To push the state of the art in speaker design? What a silly thing to say. What's the point? To produce an incredible-sounding speaker, of course! Stereophile had this to say about the Scintillas: "with the right electronics, placement, and musical material - it can be the most musically natural speaker I have ever heard, at any price." I daresay that is the point.

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Rich:

State of the art in speaker design doesn't mean designing a speaker to have at ultra low impedances. There's nothing to say that the original design goals of the Scintilla could not have been met if its impedance was 2 ohms or more. That's what i meant to say and if 1 ohm sounds best, then why not 0.5 ohms nominal or less? Designing it for these ultra-low impedances also limits your customer base for few of them, if any, would have the ability to drive these speakers. I don't think this would be a proper business decision to make. Maybe that's why there are no longer made?

roberto said:

Hola... it is the way that any electrostatic speakers impedance behavior. The ribbon is about the same as you can see it above. The impedance depends of the frequency... as an example, a conventional tweeter, as the frequency goes up, the impedance goes up too, on an electrostatic, drops like a brick. So, the low impedance is at very high frequency, where there is not too much music there (20KHz). Also it is very difficult for any MIC to record that frequency. But ML sound is one of the best of the world, right? So, you do not worry about specs, and enjoy your ML sound! Happy listening.

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These are Apogee Scintillas with a 1-ohm nominal impedance from 20Hz to 20kHz. ML's only drop to 1 ohms at the highest of frequencies with is fine.

Yes, and if you remember David Hafler Co. They made a power amp that you could short the speaker terminals, and it could handle the short circuit. The amp runned a high temperature with heavy mass heat sinks. So, it could drive these low impedance and the cost was very cheap, and truly high end product. Also, Mark Levinson had the Model 2 monoblocks, they were designed to drive the famous HQD system. Hartley-Quad-Decca. That was in the early 80s. The amps were class A @ 25W/ch. Their weight were about 80 pounds each. Threshold was another brand that could handle very low impedance. Bedini, Sumo, Forte, are others. The impedance is an AC resistance and varies depending of the frequency. Yes, 1 ohms it very, very low. Very difficult to drive, but not impossible. Frank Van Alstine is other manufacture that is on the high end since long time ago. But, I read and understand your point. Why to bother designing 1 ohm speaker, if there are only just a few power amps that could handly it, right? Well, the answer is that there are amps that did use those speakers as a tool design. ML was another brand that many audio manufactures used it as a tool design, as I recall, Mark Levinson, Conrad Johnson, Audio Research, Krell, Aragon, Bryston, Acurus, Classe, Sonic Frontiers, Jef Rowland, Spectral, to name a few. Happy listening!

m not sure a 10w tube will drive ML reasonably well, but i guess i could be wrong.

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Well 15w is more than enough on my Vantages ( Radford STA 15 ) and it sound quite good to