How Great is the Sanders Magtech?

Hey Todd -- That's quite a bit of upgrading / updating you've accomplished; Very Nice, indeed. Congrats!

Couple of quick thoughts:

- WRT the Oppo: Presuming the fan is activated by a heat sensor, perhaps a small aftermarket whisper-quiet fan mounted to enhance airflow across the player would keep the internal fan from activating. It should NOT be just trading one noise-maker for another; there are some pretty darn quiet fans out there, and relatively inexpensive as well. I did this successfully a few years ago to mitigate the heater in my rack masquerading as an amplifier.

- You probably received the notification regarding the update to the Olive software, but I mention just in case...

Thanks for sating (for the moment) our inquiring minds!

tsv_1 said:

Anywho - hope all is well Ken. How's the Trinnov treating you?

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Much more flexibility and control than the TacT - every time I think I have the features sussed out, the US distributor (a terrific guy and just down the road apiece) stops by for a listening session and shows me something new to think about and to play with! :think:

All in all, a remarkable bit of kit and I couldn't be more delighted with the purchase.

The Oppo 95 has just received a great review in Hi-Fi News over here, Todd. I expect if you pull the lid off the Oppo and see if the fan comes on still (bet it doesn't) then you have a cheap solution, albeit a visually impaired one.

Bit surprised about the Sanders pre and the hunmming Modwrongs. Still, live & learn, hey?

I have become convinced I need a decent active pre. Requirements thus:

1) Probably a tube one, the Apogees seem to relish a preamp with tubes (as well as tube power amps) as recent experiments using a Woo Audio WA3 as a pre have confirmed. However, the cheapish Woo isn't really up to the task, has one input and no r/c. It also doesn't like big bass modulations - it literally clipped playing The XX last night - and badly. Also doesn't have much gain. But it does sound pretty good in the main system decked out with an RCA 6AS7 and some 1960s Tesla ECC88s. Quiet, too. I'm also a bit surprised/have had to reset earlier beliefs, as the Woo for the most part gives a better showing than the Air Tight passive using the Alps RK50 volume pot.

2) Full R/C - including source select and pref. a balance control.

3) At least 3 RCA inputs and two RCA outs.

4) Has to look cool - and be quiet.

5) 2nd hand as I won't buy much new. Don't like it? Sell it on at minimal loss.

6) I really, really wish the more esoteric Woo head amps were preamps too, like the WA3 and WA2. I'd buy one in a flash if I could convince them to fit an R/C pot - though since they sell direct I'd probably get a new one in this case.

Sick Todd! Going ape $h!t! What I like to see. very cool. Still liking the Magtechs? I will be A/Bing it against the Carvers tomorrow night. cant wait.

tsv_1 said:

Many updates... many.

- WRT a preamp, I'm STILL trying to find a pre-amp that suits my needs. The MW LS100 was a strong contender, but just a little too tube-ish to my ears. I hope the buyer is happy with it. It's a very nice product. I'm really in a bit of a quandary as to what to do next on a pre. I'm leaning toward either a VAC Mk3 (kinda pricey though),
- WRT amps - I was able to sell the MW KWA150SEs and convert into a pair of Magtech monos - which I love! (Justin take note of my new love affair ) Unlike the Sanders Pre, the Magtechs are dead quiet and have the biggest set of amp-balls I've ever had grace (if that's the right word) my system. Totally in control, crazy headroom, inaudible noisefloor... they are awesome! They will NOT be going back to Colorado.

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Todd, first, big congrats on the Magtechs! I don't recall ever hearing those amps, but I bet they sound great, since you're keeping them.

I talked to someone who had both the VAC MK3 and a c-j GAT and he preferred the VAC! Good luck in your search!

Thanks Steve... the Magtechs are dead quiet (morgue-in-the-vacuum-of-space quiet) both in terms of output noise and transformer hum... and they make superman look like a garden slug Hyperbole aside, they are a tremendous value in amplification. They run cool (due in part to the linear regulator based supply design) and because they're always on (only ~30W idle power), they're always in the sweet spot. Not hard or edgy in the least (like some SS can be). Smooth, articulate, and entirely noninvasive. They may not be the prettiest painted birds on the street, but they're not really unpleasant little boxes either.

Yes, If I could find a VAC Mk3 for something less than the cost of a car, I'd absolutely spend some time with it.

BTW. congrats again on the Pass acquisition. They are stupendous

Still wearing a bib to catch all the drool. The Magtechs rule.

Looking forward to the Carver<>Sanders shoot out at the Necro-Corral.

Me too, Mr Carver versus Mr Sanders. A battle with no fists. Who will win?

Also, when the Necro declares Mr Carver the boss, whatchya gonna do, Todd?

Exciting times.

OK sorry, Todd, I am being cruel. I don't mean it - really! I'm sure Mr sanders will come out on top... er... well... he will won't he? Hm...

I've got the best of both worlds: Sanders monoblocs on my Summits and a Carver Sunfire Cinema multichannel amp running the center, sides, and surrounds. Truth is, they both make great amps, but I think I would have to lean toward the Sanders to power mains speakers in a two-channel setup. I have to admit, though, I prefer my Pass Labs X-350.5 just slightly over my Sanders monoblocs, but unfortunately they put off way too much heat for my media room, which is ventilation-challenged. So they sit in my secondary system driving the Ascents.

User211 said:

Me too, Mr Carver versus Mr Sanders. A battle with no fists. Who will win?

Also, when the Necro declares Mr Carver the boss, whatchya gonna do, Todd?

Exciting times.

OK sorry, Todd, I am being cruel. I don't mean it - really! I'm sure Mr sanders will come out on top... er... well... he will won't he? Hm...

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Hi,
Just spoke to him and he just got home.

It will take awhile for him to get set up but should be interesting!

I will probably try them at my house in the not to distant future.

Should be fun

Best,
Bob

Hey folks. Ok Amps are setup and tubes are warming up now. 20 minutes then a bias adjustment and away we go! Biasing is so easy on these. No meter needed. Check back tonight for first impressions. hey necro-pop, borrow all my amps when Im on vaca! just remember where they live

Necrosuit said:

Hey folks. Ok Amps are setup and tubes are warming up now. 20 minutes then a bias adjustment and away we go! Biasing is so easy on these. No meter needed. Check back tonight for first impressions. hey necro-pop, borrow all my amps when Im on vaca! just remember where they live

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We will see as I have been doing this for 40 years and have had many of the big boys in this house as you well know

Still haven't heard anything in your system or mine to beat the LSA.

Have fun!

Necro- old man.

Hey Folks, ok I have some good news and bad news. Keep in mind the carvers are only 2 hours into the listening and this impression is with my system, room and ears.
Carver Pro's:
1) Very warm and organic, details are outstanding
2) Surprisingly powerful! Has good slam.
3) Stage is very huge and the front depth is much closer feeling.
4) The sibilance I struggle with, with every other amp seems to have been tamed with these amps, easier on the ears.
5) I seem to hear more background instruments in more detail, like keyboards, backing vocals movement etc.
Carver Con's:
1) needs a good hour for the tubes or sound to really shine, before an hour it’s a bit off.
2) Speed of delivery is not like the Magtech, certain parts of songs that you expect the in your face slam kind of roll off much smoother ( the organic trade off)
3) Certain parts of songs that you expect the instrument to be very defined in a fast transient is not as defined or "placed" almost blended (very quick fast parts like quick drum rolls on heavier music)
Magtech pro's:
1) Drives CLX with ease
2) Extremely fast, delivers "pops" and slam instantly and with force
3) Large sound stage with very detailed transients
4) Very non colored - clean
Magtech con's:
1) Tends to be sharp or have ear stress (sibilance)
2) Sometimes can make heavier music sound extremely thin or make certain parts thin of any music
3) forward depth is lacking, needs sub turned up a bit to balance room.

The bad news is that after about 2 hours of listening I decided to really crank the amps and when I did this one of the amps threw a huge spark or arc from one of the KT88 tubes and stopped working! I checked and the 1.5 amp fuse was blown. I already emailed Carver looking for answers. nice way to ruin a night!

But overall they sounded really good. Way more A/B to be done.

tsv_1 said:

Hi Ken,

Thanks! When I spoke to Roger he mentioned that he's never had anyone return a Magtech after their 30 day trial - never. I can see why owners are "biased". His amplifiers are amazing, especially for the money. I just wished I'd gone down the Sanders path before ModWright. Oh well. BTW, The ModWrights sounded great. I really had no complaints about their sound or ability to drive the CLXes. Where they "failed" in my curious view of the world was transformer noise. I could hear them humming from my listening position. A shame really that expensive amps like that should suffer any sort of physical noise, but there you have it. I did my best to ignore it for as long as I could. In all honestly, if it weren't for that issue, I would very likely have just hung on to them. But in retrospect, had I done that, I'd not have had any "good" excuse to convert them to the Magtechs. So, at the end of the day, I'm glad to have had the time and experience with the MWs, and gladder still to be living harmoniously thus far with the Magtechs. I still haven't really put them through their paces yet across a wide variety of genres. That's coming. I just need for the rest of the system to settle into place first.

Thanks for the pointer on the 5400. I've heard a lot of good things about it (and it's various modded incarnations). I've seen a few Wadias that look interesting too, and Esoteric. I don't want to spend too much because lord knows some new DAC implementation that allows hyper-DSD-warp-drive, or whatever, is right around the corner. If the Oppo didn't have that damn fan - I'd keep it. Why do the audio Gods harbor such hatred for me? Why?

Anywho - hope all is well Ken. How's the Trinnov treating you?

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Congrat's Todd!

Have a great time playing

My Best,
Bob

Necrosuit, your results are exactly what I would have expected. Sanders' amps are very neutral-sounding and accurate. They impart little signature of their own, and take complete control of the speakers for lightning fast transients. Carver's are warmer and slightly more "laid-back" in their sound, and very pleasing. If you stick with the Sanders amps, you may prefer them with a nice tube preamp to smooth out the sibilance you hear.

Rich said:

Necrosuit, your results are exactly what I would have expected. Sanders' amps are very neutral-sounding and accurate. They impart little signature of their own, and take complete control of the speakers for lightning fast transients. Carver's are warmer and slightly more "laid-back" in their sound, and very pleasing. If you stick with the Sanders amps, you may prefer them with a nice tube preamp to smooth out the sibilance you hear.

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Hey Rich, I am already using the Thor tpa-1000 which I had upgraded to the un-released Thor Majjlnor pre-amp soon to debut which is amazing, zero noise floor. I will be keeping this pre-amp for a long time. Perhaps tube rolling will help. Either way I have both at my discretion for as long as I like, (which is a nice way to test in the long run). I got the Carver back up and running tonight, swapped the possible bad tube to the other amp, cranked the volume and played the same passage as last night at same volume and all is good. Seemed to be tube flame out. I will tell you, re-adjusting my seat, sub and wall treatment has warranted extremely good results with the carver. I am late for dinner due to how good it sounded! couldnt stop with 1 song. Only 3 hours on these amps and tubes and already making a great impression. Well see. Hey Todd, I would be cool with you borrowing these if you choose to drive and get them, or we setup another weekend and Ill bring em for some good ol fun!

Any chance we could get FR measurements with both sets of amps in play? The Sanders is quite linear and it's possible that the Carver is rolling off slightly @ H/F.

Sibilance is generally caused by over emphasis in the ~8-10kHz region. This could be caused by:

a) the recording, in which case other, differently mastered recordings could sound perfect with the Sanders and somewhat dull with the Carvers and/or
b) H/F room reflections which sum @ the LP in the offending region

I always find sibilance an odd one. Sometimes it can be quite pronounced, but not annoying. Other times, it is there and sounds annoying as hell.

The letter 'S' should, of course, be banned. Audiophiles have know this for years - why doesn't the rest of the world comply?

I curtailed problematic sibilance by letting the new KLM5 ribbons break in. I believe they take a while for the initial tensioning to loosen slightly after a couple of hundred hours or so. They sound pretty weird until that period has elapsed. Additonally, some judicious experimentation with x-over inductors in association with the Apogee refurbisher did away with any remaining annoyance factor.

Anyway, Necro dude, pretty hard to beat a really good tube amp with Logans. Just my opinion, of course! Enjoy. BTW: I am not suggesting you start playing with your CLX x-overs. What Ken has said may well turn out to be the case.

User211 said:

I always find sibilance an odd one. Sometimes it can be quite pronounced, but not annoying. Other times, it is there and sounds annoying as hell.

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It's interesting, but in the various mixing/mastering fora e.g. Gearslutz, the engineers are genuinely perplexed by the apparent obsession audiophiles have with sibilance. Their view is that it's part and parcel of the human voice and they can't understand why we listeners are constantly trying to eliminate it!

IME, so long as there's balance between the 8-10kHz region and >10kHz, it's all good. For example, Sean Colvin's vocals have plenty of sibilance and, with proper FR balance, she clearly whistles her S's - that's how it should be and it sounds perfectly natural. Too much 8-10kHz or too little >10kHz results in ssss sounds becoming ssshh, which I find unnatural and annoying.

Problem is, there's no standard for music recordings (as opposed to film). Some are flat, some tilted up, some tilted down. Here's the result of a study showing in-room (the control room) response of the same commonly used speaker in a number of control rooms:


http://seanolive.blogspot.com/2009/10/audios-circle-of-confusion.html

Even if our listening rooms/speakers produce a completely linear response (a rare occurence, I suspect), recordings can and will sound wildly different, from a spectral point of view, because of FR variation in the control rooms where they were mixed/mastered. This is why some recordings will sound sibilant, some perfect and some "dull", all in the same system.

I think it is important to "know your sounds".

One way to do this is to record various sounds, and then analyse them. Use a good quality digital recorder (a laptop and decent mic will do) and Wavepad's TFFT analyser.

Record yourself syaing the letter "S", play various chords on your guitar, drums etc and look at the TFFT analysis. I think it is a simply brilliant way to understand what is going on WRT the frequency output of various sources. I'd post the letter "S" one but it is on the drive of a now defunct laptop.