McIntosh MEN220 Room Correction System

Hi,...anyone ever has idea or present experience about use of the Mcintosh MEN220 Room Correction System with any ML speaker like Submit X and CLX or vantages and CLS. Just ordered one shippment for my two channel system consistng of all Mc gears for the rest. I really want to fine tune to a point where I will get a better or possible correct crossover filter for frequency response under my current listening room condition: No physical room treatment ever made or add on currently.

I have read many threads all over and seems most current users are using conventional speakers with the MEN220. In general, if side by side comparing between set of boxy conventional speakers and Electrostat panels, the latter should have the better vocal and overall soundstage image than boxy speakers . Therefore, by adding the MEN220 to my system with pair of let says, CLX, what would we be expecting in term of frequency response, soundstage image or other improvement.

Appreciate for any idea that would help me to set it up for better result. :bowdown:

Ron used a MEN 220 with his CLX, though he's moved on to the MX 150. If he doesn't see this thread, shoot him a PM.

I heard a demo given by the factory rep just a few weeks ago, and I forgot about the room correction part. No M/L's involved.

Here is what I wrote:
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?5236-Fall-Music-Series-at-local-store-Mac-Attack

In general, the room correction software works on all speakers except the omni-directional MBL. At least that is what the rep and other members of the crowd agreed on.

What I heard that evening was a greater sense of air. Not something M/L's need a lot of help on. However, based on what I know of on how it works, they should get along famously.

The bass was a little cleaner and faster sounding, but it was the soundstage which benefited most.

kach22i said:

What I heard that evening was a greater sense of air. Not something M/L's need a lot of help on. However, based on what I know of on how it works, they should get along famously.

The bass was a little cleaner and faster sounding, but it was the soundstage which benefited most.

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All of this makes perfect sense, George. When Room Perfect (or other full-FR RC products) flatten bass and other undesirable peaks, it un-masks midrange/highs, creating a greater sense of "air". Likewise, as both left and right channels are corrected to the same curve, acoustic asymmetry found in virtually any room is removed, allowing the various instruments, vocals etc. to "snap into place" in a far cleaner, more coherent sound stage.

One of my 2-3 most impressive experiences @ RMAF was the DEQX room. Using an HDP Express with Tikandi/Gallo speakers, the rep played uncorrected, then speaker-corrected, then speaker and room-corrected. The differences were profound.

Thanks, you guys.... I have been putting my eye sight to this add-on item and been reading reviews from other users about their experience until last weekend found one unit at a local audio shop where I was travling on business. Without hesitate for second, I decided to bring one home but only to be shipped. schedule arrive sometime next week, really hope to be delivered on time.

I was so unsure how this MEN220 would improve overall sound-stage when using with stats panels. In fact, I am debating if i should go for the CLX as replacement to my beloved CLSiiA paired with dual REL subs for low-end 60hz below. I enjoy what I have with current setup, Got a real good soundstage of center image for vocal even in a room without room treatment at all. I am so exciting that if this add-on would ever provide audiable differences in term of all kind sonic effects.

As I may noticed that at the back of unit, it has 2 pairs output, high and low.. Which pair should be used to connect to my MC402 ? My front unit is the MDA-1000 as main selector as well to serve as a preamp with input of different digital sources, such as from Sonos, MS300, and the beloved mcd-1000. I have other saperate tube system preamp, but seldam to be used. I have been thinking about the MX150 with already room correction bulid-in, Or the C-50 with 8-bands EQ, but the features of digital input seems useless to me since I have the mda-1000. Therfore, Would you guys prefer to fine tune the c-50 EQ manually to suit your sonic taste or let the men220 does its best? Due to physical sonic condition, even with a wonderful center image, the CLSiiA just can not perform to their best in term of overall frequency response, Mid/high is never correctly produced, lack of bass, hence to add the REL sub with speakon-cable connected to the binding posts of the CLSs. Now, How do I connect the MEN220 to the power amp and to the subs ? Use the high-out to the MC402, then low-out to the subs? I am sure the manual should provide good instructions but real life experience should be a better bid. thanks a lot..Cheers..

Pat

Pat, you really need to talk to a user, like Ron. From my far less experienced (with the MEN 220, plenty of experience with a similar product) vantage point, it appears that the high/low refer to high pass and low pass, which would indicate that the subs (they are active, right?) connect to the low and the 402/mains to the high.

How, exactly, do you plan to incorporate the "separate tube system preamp"?

MX150 is, AFAIK, simply a multi-channel version of the MEN 220 + video. If you're running 2ch only, the MX150 makes little sense.

Because the MEN 220 has only analog input/output, the only way you can configure would be MCD1000>MDA1000>MEN 220>MC402+subs. Note that this involves a redundant DA, but there appears to be no avoiding it.

Dunno what you would do with a C50, and the MEN 220 apparently has a six-band PEQ which lays on top of the DRC, so it already has some flexibility built-in.

Do you already own the RELs or are you shopping for subs, in general?

/Ken

Thanks, Ken.. I have another system involved all tube based besides the Mac. A Cary audio tube pre and the tube power amp, what I meant was I have the option connecting the men220 with the tube system if I like. But for now I will be trying all Mac throughout the signal path with the mda1000 acts as preamp. I have the REL paired to the CLS for while. I am not a deep bass boom boom guy, I don't listen in high volume, what I want is a system which would bring me close enough to real life sonic effect in term of correct frequency response and 3D soundstage based on what I have for the untreated room condition.

The REL is an active/passive woofer, I have one for each channel. It has all the adjustments such as phrase, volume and frequency cut off level available. But not knowing if the REL is connecting to the low pass of the men220, which frequency cutoff and woofer level should be adjusted before undergoing the mic setup of the men220.

I think I will prefer the men220 over the mx150, since I am not too crazy for video. About the c-50, I just want to add a real preamp if I have choices. I like it's 8 bands EQ, but through the manually adjustment for ideal tone control, I think I should let the men220 does the job for me. Much easier in my life. in fact I have already purchased the men220. Got email from the dealer today said shipping should be done today, Just hope it arrives in time.

Thanks again,
Pat

Pat, you and I have close to the same gear. I tried the MDA/MCD as my pre and found it a bit sterile and dry for my taste. I added the C1000 pre with tubes and it did soften the presentation to my liking. I did try the MDA/C combo with a C2200 tube pre for awhile and I did enjoy that except I wanted a balanced system hence the C1000 gear. I've considered the MEN220 but considering I have many RealTraps in my room, I don't know if the benefit is there. Ron, as mentioned above has quite abit of exposure to the gear and he'd be the one to here from.

I would actually like to hear your comments on the 220 since there are not alot of folks using it with an ESL. YOu may just convince me, or not!

Gordon

Gordon, thanks for your replying.. I certainly would like to post more comments once it all hook up to the system. I can not wait too long to hear the difference.

If the MDA preamp section is not doing it job nicely, then I am hoping to meet a C-46 or whatever it has phono section for my TT. In fact I am using the tube based Cary system for vinyl for true analog all the way.

Pat

All I could add is you will be pleased with the MEN220. The reason I changed to the MX150 processor, is I feel it is a better value if you are into home theater. It corrects all your channels, and works as a very good preamp for 2.1 channel music listening.

Hey, Ron..wow, it is wonderful hearing your comments as positive and surely will look for it when it is arrived next week. I am not a video fan so the men220 should take care my 2ch. But what would you suggest the I/O connection to the panels and the subs from the hi/low pass. What should i adjust the frequency cutoff for the subs and how much volume to be set on the sub before going through the mic setup. Your further suggestions will be appreciated much. Thanks, cheers
Pat.

MLFAN said:

Hey, Ron..wow, it is wonderful hearing your comments as positive and surely will look for it when it is arrived next week. I am not a video fan so the men220 should take care my 2ch. But what would you suggest the I/O connection to the panels and the subs from the hi/low pass. What should i adjust the frequency cutoff for the subs and how much volume to be set on the sub before going through the mic setup. Your further suggestions will be appreciated much. Thanks, cheers
Pat.

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To be perfectly honest, I don't know the frequency cutoff for the subs. My equipment was set up professionally. I know they let the room perfect in the MX150 set up the sub, and was not manually set up. At the time I did ask him, he could not give me an exact answer since the room perfect handled it. I must say I just saw the movie Super 8 on blu ray, and this just reinforced how amazing this home theater set up is. The MEN220 works real well with the Martin Logan speaker system.

Some of original MEN220's were not a true balanced system. Dan on another audio site discovered this when one of his amps was running hotter than the other. McIntosh took a few months to figure out a fix on this. I know he sent his back to McIntosh Labs for the retrofit, so his was a true balanced system. Not sure on how many others on the used market had the fix. The new ones are a true balanced system. Not sure how you are setting up yours. If not using balanced cables in a true balanced system, it does not matter. Dan is a very well respected person on Audioafficion***.org. The MX150 is a true balanced system. You might want to check. Buying used there is no warrantee, and I do not know what the retrofit is. I know though it is not just a simple fix. I think it is adding another circuit board on top of an existing circuit board.

Ron, I know Dan. I purchased some gear from him at that site. Haven't been there in awhile although I shoud drop in. Dan had some interesting "things to say" about the 220 but they worked out in the end from what I've read and he told me. A great piece of gear but I'm still abit gun shy since I do have so many traps. I'll have to see what Pat relays to make a decision.

Gordon

MLFAN said:

Gordon, thanks for your replying.. I certainly would like to post more comments once it all hook up to the system. I can not wait too long to hear the difference.

If the MDA preamp section is not doing it job nicely, then I am hoping to meet a C-46 or whatever it has phono section for my TT. In fact I am using the tube based Cary system for vinyl for true analog all the way.

Pat

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Go for broke and get the C1000 Nice prices on them at Audio Classics!!

Gordon

Gordon said:

Go for broke and get the C1000 Nice prices on them at Audio Classics!!

Gordon

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Gordon, Yes...One day I will get that for myself if my business is good enough to support my expensive hobby and of course my wife says OK.

Ron said:

Some of original MEN220's were not a true balanced system. Dan on another audio site discovered this when one of his amps was running hotter than the other. McIntosh took a few months to figure out a fix on this. I know he sent his back to McIntosh Labs for the retrofit, so his was a true balanced system. Not sure on how many others on the used market had the fix. The new ones are a true balanced system. Not sure how you are setting up yours. If not using balanced cables in a true balanced system, it does not matter. Dan is a very well respected person on Audioafficion***.org. The MX150 is a true balanced system. You might want to check. Buying used there is no warrantee, and I do not know what the retrofit is. I know though it is not just a simple fix. I think it is adding another circuit board on top of an existing circuit board.

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Ron, I have read Den's posts many times from the first to the last post just to follow what had happened with the MEN220. Knowing a non true balanced connection problem that cause the hot issue on one of the amp. I certianly will aware that once mine is arrived. I purchased the unit new in box at aurthorized dealer which I presume it should be with factory warrantee. Will call them to reconfirm whether i am buying the new retrofit unit if Mcintosh ever did that on their new shipment.

Also, what I meant about to connect to Sub's system was my REL has variable crossover control from 30hz-120hz and volume control knob for hi/low input. I am not sure what these two control knobs should be adjusted to before going through auto setup with the man220. I like to do my own setup based on manual's instruction whenever I have new gear add-on. Since I dont watch movie through with my Mac system, so really have no idea what these wonderful mac gears would be a big different in sonic wise when compare to my Pionner sc-09 and bdp-09 bluray video system. I had been thinking to buy the mx150 but realize that I have to spend more for additional amps to do the movie. less than one movie a month, that is a waste for the 150, so I finally tied up with MEN220 just straightly for 2ch.

Congratulations on your purchase.

MLFAN said:

Also, what I meant about to connect to Sub's system was my REL has variable crossover control from 30hz-120hz and volume control knob for hi/low input. I am not sure what these two control knobs should be adjusted to before going through auto setup with the man220.

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Pat, as I read the T2 manual, you want to use the "low level" input on the REL, each sub connected to one of the channels of the MEN. Volume (combined with "crossover frequency" - see below) will control how well the mains/subs blend. Do you have any measurment gear e.g. XTZ, OmniMic, REW or similar? If you don't, I'm happy to lend you my XTZ for this exercise. Or, you can do it by ear. Not as precise, but may work well enough to please you.

What REL calls crossover frequency is, technically speaking, a low-pass filter. Set it at maximum 120Hz when taking MEN measurements. The actual, true crossover duties between ML and REL will be handled by the MEN.

RUR said:

Pat, as I read the T2 manual, you want to use the "low level" input on the REL, each sub connected to one of the channels of the MEN. Volume (combined with "crossover frequency" - see below) will control how well the mains/subs blend. Do you have any measurment gear e.g. XTZ, OmniMic, REW or similar? If you don't, I'm happy to lend you my XTZ for this exercise. Or, you can do it by ear. Not as precise, but may work well enough to please you.

What REL calls crossover frequency is, technically speaking, a low-pass filter. Set it at maximum 120Hz when taking MEN measurements. The actual, true crossover duties between ML and REL will be handled by the MEN.

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Ken..
this is really kind of you. My ears are not too well on fine tuning such technical adjustment. So thats why i spent good money to help me finish the task. I have options connect the RELs to the binding posts or low level RCA with adjustable crossover frequency set to 120hz as recommended. As REL suggests better with the speakon cable for high level input, But should I adjust the volume control to half on the RELs before performing the calibration. yeah, I like to try the XTZ for experimental reason if this is not too trouble borrow from you. Please PM me if you have time doing that. I am in SF. Thanks so much for all the info.