Summit X to CLX - is it worth it?

THE CLX sound with bass thats awesome!

This is what I still prefer over the CLX's. Summits with Magneplanar
TYmpani IV's (modified) and bass down to 1 hz with the TRW-17
rotary subwoofer. The CLX's are transparent, but this combo is
just as transparent, but with real slam and authority, enormous
sound-stage. Choral music with a huge pipe organ (8hz and 16hz
stops) are beyond any commercially available loudspeaker.

rasmaudio said:

This is what I still prefer over the CLX's. Summits with Magneplanar
TYmpani IV's (modified) and bass down to 1 hz with the TRW-17
rotary subwoofer. The CLX's are transparent, but this combo is
just as transparent, but with real slam and authority, enormous
sound-stage. Choral music with a huge pipe organ (8hz and 16hz
stops) are beyond any commercially available loudspeaker.

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That's one system I'd really like to hear, but alas never will.

Some real effort there with the Thigpen too. Enjoy!

rasmaudio said:

This is what I still prefer over the CLX's. Summits with Magneplanar
TYmpani IV's (modified) and bass down to 1 hz with the TRW-17
rotary subwoofer. The CLX's are transparent, but this combo is
just as transparent, but with real slam and authority, enormous
sound-stage. Choral music with a huge pipe organ (8hz and 16hz
stops) are beyond any commercially available loudspeaker.

Click to expand...

I'm not going to argue the bass aspect of your post... who wouldn't want accurate spleen rattling bass (when it's part of the intended musical program)?

However, I will take you up on the "transparency" claim. As much as I enjoyed the transparancy/articulation/fidelity of the Summit (Summit Xs in my case), IMO the CLXs are in an entirely different league in terms of presenting EVERYTHING that's in the recording. Like a giant magnifying glass (in terms of detail) versus the summits which are more like a well prescribed set of corrective lenses.

And while well matched bass can help improve the perception of detail to some degree (or so I've experienced)... the reality is that the CLX has managed something very special in terms of truthfullness that no other speaker (that I've ever heard) approaches.

Donning my esbestos jammies now for whatever conflagration this may ignite

I have heard both but never A/B and the integration is better with the electrostatic woofer..but the resolution from about 400hz is no different IMO.

wallacefl said:

I have heard both but never A/B and the integration is better with the electrostatic woofer..but the resolution from about 400hz is no different IMO.

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I don't think we would expect too much difference in terms of just the curvelinear xstat's performance (between Summit-X and CLX)... I do think (and this is JMO) that it has a whole lot to do with how ML managed to integrate the mid/high pannel with the woofer panel in the CLX... I think that's exactly where most of the revelatory magic resides. At least that's what makes the most sense to my often-entirely-wrong brain.

So... maybe if RASM has somehow captured a similar integration with his magnetic woofers... I'm willing to take a baby step back in my highly charged (not) positioning.

rasmaudio said:

Choral music with a huge pipe organ (8hz and 16hz
stops) are beyond any commercially available loudspeaker.

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While true the precentage of people that actually listen to that music (other than to 'demo') I'll wager is small in scope. With that said, given where I reside, I've heard (felt) the bass notes you so mentioned performed by Mr Keith Chapman on the Wanamaker organ as kid back in the sixties.

Another contender for transparency

The Hill Plasma speaker is far superior in many aspects to the ClX or any other electrostatic (no moving mass). Transients are essentially perfect and no resonances to speak of. Adding the Apogee Stages
and Apogee Scintilla's integrate extremely well with the plasma, which
operates from 700 hz to 100 khz! Adding the TRW-17 rotary subwoofer provides response down to 1 hz. Power is provided by
many Krell amplifiers, and this system will handle anything.

twich54 said:

While true the precentage of people that actually listen to that music (other than to 'demo') I'll wager is small in scope. With that said, given where I reside, I've heard (felt) the bass notes you so mentioned performed by Mr Keith Chapman on the Wanamaker organ as kid back in the sixties.

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Dave, speaking of demos, I'll bet that it's great for demos of trains. So now you want one as well ??? :devil:

Ras,

Both systems you mention are so far removed from even the commercially viable / esoteric hi end world.

How many people have actually heard them and the CLX to make any meaningful comparison?

Based on the above and absent any further information, I find your representations to be absolutely meaningless.

GG

Gordon Gray said:

Based on the above and absent any further information, I find your representations to be absolutely meaningless.

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Well, yes, but it is no worse than any other subjective impression, really. There's so many other speakers out there no one can hear them all and make appropriate cross-comparisons.

In another life, as an audio engineer, I'd love the chance to play with ESL/ribbon hybrids, and wonder why commercial manufacturers have kept clear of it. I know of no commercially produced ESL/ribbon hybrids on the planet.

To stress again, I seriously wonder why.

Plasma reproduction in a class by itself

After hearing a plasma loudspeaker like the Hill Plasma, one gets a
real education of reproducing sound. The Hill Plasma was state of
the art in the late seventies and to this day no loudspeaker manufacturer has surpassed or equaled this transducer. There are a
few plasma transducers available, but only covering a range from
5000 hz on up, the Hill plasma starts at 700 hz.

rasmaudio said:

After hearing a plasma loudspeaker like the Hill Plasma, one gets a
real education of reproducing sound. The Hill Plasma was state of
the art in the late seventies and to this day no loudspeaker manufacturer has surpassed or equaled this transducer. There are a
few plasma transducers available, but only covering a range from
5000 hz on up, the Hill plasma starts at 700 hz.

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Life threatening ionization of the listening room aside I'm curious as to the noise floor of the plasma tweeter. When "idling" doesn't the plasma corona (or whatever the technical term is for the non-modulated plasma discharge) produce a subtle but audible pink noise - or is it completely inaudible?

Plasma issues

The Hill plasma transducer has a built in fan and can be heard, but
only when one is next to the device. The Hill Plasmatronics avoided the air pollution hazard by having its own built-in supply of helium, which is a noble gas and thus unreactive even when ionized. Helium is also biologically inert, and being much lighter than air, promptly escapes to the upper atmosphere and outer space. Even in the best-insulated houses it will be gone in a matter of seconds, so it is completely safe. The high voltages and the intensity of the plasma
are items that one has to be aware of (don't look directly at the plasma as it is extremely bright.

The helium tank, pressure gauges and all the electronics are checked
often for problems, but with routine maintenance there has been no
problems. One can hear a very faint hiss of helium gas every time one turns the unit on, and a crackling noise, but it stabilizes after a few seconds. Swapping the helium tank for a fresh one every month is not cheap and the tanks are quite heavy. Impractical, yes, but
a reference to compare other loudspeakers with.

rasmaudio said:

The Hill plasma transducer has a built in fan and can be heard, but
only when one is next to the device. The Hill Plasmatronics avoided the air pollution hazard by having its own built-in supply of helium, which is a noble gas and thus unreactive even when ionized. Helium is also biologically inert, and being much lighter than air, promptly escapes to the upper atmosphere and outer space. Even in the best-insulated houses it will be gone in a matter of seconds, so it is completely safe. The high voltages and the intensity of the plasma
are items that one has to be aware of (don't look directly at the plasma as it is extremely bright.

The helium tank, pressure gauges and all the electronics are checked
often for problems, but with routine maintenance there has been no
problems. One can hear a very faint hiss of helium gas every time one turns the unit on, and a crackling noise, but it stabilizes after a few seconds. Swapping the helium tank for a fresh one every month is not cheap and the tanks are quite heavy. Impractical, yes, but
a reference to compare other loudspeakers with.

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All very interesting stuff... and while it certainly brings to mind something along the lines of employing a fighter jet to swat a fly, still - these "statement" projects are important (IMO) to help push technology along.

Now, fans, hissing gas lines, delivery trucks, calls to the stock broker, and retinal risks aside - back to my question about weather the plasma discharge itself emits noise while idle. I assume it's inaudible from a typical listening distance, but I'm interested to know how much "hiss" the idle palsma itself emits in close proximity...?

Oh... and while you've made it clear in other posts that yours is the Summit+Maggie+rotary system... is this ribbon/plasma system yours as well, or an associates?

Thanks

Noise

At the listening seat one can not hear the plasma discharge and the cooling fan is heard when one is within a couple of feet. I do not own this system (a friend of mine). Here is another picture of
the Hill Plasma loudspeakers before modifying.

The Hill Plasmatronics avoided the air pollution hazard by having its own built-in supply of helium, which is a noble gas and thus unreactive even when ionized. Helium is also biologically inert, and being much lighter than air, promptly escapes to the upper atmosphere and outer space. Even in the best-insulated houses it will be gone in a matter of seconds, so it is completely safe.

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Not to be too pickey about an obsolute technology, but the air polution hazard is not from the helium itself, (and with MRI magnets sucking the worlds helium supply away, it's getting more expensive all the time) but the polution is from the plasma ionizing the room air, not from the plasma itself. Any plasma in air (think contained lightning bolt) will generate ozone. Not really something you would want to live with, that's for sure.

Chuck

tsv_1 said:

Donning my esbestos jammies now for whatever conflagration this may ignite

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You’re too much! :ROFL:

tsv_1 said:

Donning my esbestos jammies now for whatever conflagration this may ignite

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Todd, you need to learn how to spell. It's asbestos, because that's what your jammies cover.

plasma

cstory said:

Not to be too pickey about an obsolute technology, but the air polution hazard is not from the helium itself, (and with MRI magnets sucking the worlds helium supply away, it's getting more expensive all the time) but the polution is from the plasma ionizing the room air, not from the plasma itself. Any plasma in air (think contained lightning bolt) will generate ozone. Not really something you would want to live with, that's for sure.

Chuck

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Dident Nelson Pass get very ill while designing his discharge speaker, I could imagine the continuity between dynamic & signal to air driver would be lousy on the plasmatronics. Pass unit was full range. Completely agree wih Gordon G. statement

All very interesting indeed!! I am still very excited about my CLX demo!!