Best Martin Logan center channel for AT screen?

I posted in another thread about how I intend to get an acoustically transparent screen soon so I can go very wide for my screen size in my home theater setup and also position the center (have been using phantom center so far) exactly where it needs to be. My mains are CLXs. So my question is, should I be still looking into the Stage for a center because of horizontal dispersion issues, or would a single Spire, Summit, or even Electromotion ESL do the trick? I am assuming that one of the towers is the way to go as compromises were made to make the Stage a horizontal speaker. But I just wanted to check here to make sure there isnt some dispersion issue I was not thinking of.

I highly doubt I can afford a third CLX as I doubt I would be able to find a used or demo single speaker.

I use the setup 60/40 music / theater.

Hello,
I would go with a Summit/Spire/Vantage.EM. Or even a older ML ESL Hybrid if you can find just 1. That is going to be the problem with all Models but the EM-ESL as I think with that Model S/N Matching is not as common and I think you can get just 1. Also, Search here for Posts from JonFo about his Center Channel he Designed from an SL3. Really is an awesome and quite creative solution.
Cheers,
JJ

There's a single Purity on ebay right now. It has some cosmetic issues but behind a screen those would be mostly moot IMO.

http://cgi.ebay.com/MARTIN-LOGAN-PU...09?pt=Speakers_Subwoofers&hash=item5d2fd7bb75

Not my auction BTW. If I was in your position with a speaker behind the screen I'd try that option out.

hifiaudio2 said:

I posted in another thread about how I intend to get an acoustically transparent screen soon so I can go very wide for my screen size in my home theater setup and also position the center (have been using phantom center so far) exactly where it needs to be. My mains are CLXs. So my question is, should I be still looking into the Stage for a center because of horizontal dispersion issues, or would a single Spire, Summit, or even Electromotion ESL do the trick? I am assuming that one of the towers is the way to go as compromises were made to make the Stage a horizontal speaker. But I just wanted to check here to make sure there isnt some dispersion issue I was not thinking of.

I highly doubt I can afford a third CLX as I doubt I would be able to find a used or demo single speaker.

I use the setup 60/40 music / theater.

Click to expand...

There you are "Knock, knock, knockin' on Heavens Door" approaching audio Nirvana. You have CLX's as mains and a room that is large enough to allow you to put a screen in front of your CLX's. For me to be able to provide a proper opinion I need a little more info:
How big is your room? What is the distance between your mains? What are you using for rears? Do you listen to multi-channel music? Is your big screen going to be a drop down or fixed? What are you using for subs? What are you using as a processor?

Last year Paul Grove (ML Sales Director) and Peter Soderberg were kind enough to work on the concept of a custom center for my CLX's. What I wanted to do was slice a CLX to a height of 44 inches and add a symetric bass panel on the empty side yielding a center channel that would match the CLX timber and have enough gusto to keep up with my mains. The center would have had dimensions something like 44" high by 40" wide. Ultimately there were a number of design challenges and the ML engineers thought that I would not be that happy with the results and so we did not proceed but I give kudos to the ML team for their effort.

Regards,
Gary

How big is your room? What is the distance between your mains? What are you using for rears? Do you listen to multi-channel music? Is your big screen going to be a drop down or fixed? What are you using for subs? What are you using as a processor?

I have attached a sketch. The room is about 17'W x 27.4'L x 9'H. The inside edge of the speakers is probably about 100" apart. The panels are about 3ft into the room from the front wall. I plan on moving them into the room a bit more once I do this screen project. Obviously I would be moving my seating back the same amount to compensate. The rears (really sides) are ML Vignettes (open to change at some point) and the sub is a SVS PC13 ultra cylinder sub. This will change to two JL audio Fathom f113s.

I dont listen to MCH music much - mainly 2ch music and movies. I have an Integra 80.2 processor and Emotiva 500w monoblocks for the CLXs.

Screen will be a fixed screen and I will also build a GOM wall and probably a small stage for looks. I do have concerns about the screen frame crossing the CLXs that I asked about over in the acoustics forum, but I think the end result will be minimal interaction.

I have a full 3d Google sketchup "CAD" drawing of my room I can send to anyone that is that interested.

hifiaudio2 said:

...

I have a full 3d Google sketchup "CAD" drawing of my room I can send to anyone that is that interested.

Click to expand...

Not many of us here with AT screens, but I am one of those ;-)

You are on the right track looking for a seriously sized center to mate with the CLX’s. I can say that none of the factory centers can do them justice.

If looking for something simple and commercially available, find a used Spire. Ideally from either the factory (they might have a cosmetic-only shipping damaged unit), or someone who got stuck with only one working unit.

Or do what I did, and buy a used set and use one for the center and other as hallway decoration

The rationale for a Spire:
Largest non-CLX panel and short enough to fit behind screen
Better (IMHO) matting between lower distortion front firing woofer and panel as compared to Summit.
Handles the >80Hz range very well. Your processor might spot it a 60Hz crossover, but center locations tend to have some bass cancelation and the auto-config will likely pick 80Hz.

To best match the screen, you will be building a raised mount for it such that 100% of the panel is behind the AT screen. It should also tilt up the panel to full perpendicular position.

As I noted in my other post, please dampen the rear wall behind the screen, specifically behind the center speaker for best results.

Good to see you are modeling it out in a CAD app, for a project like this it important to ‘fit’ everything before the contractors start cutting wood.

I’d be happy to review your designs. Plenty of opinions here and all free ;-)

Since your Integra 80.2 processor has full Audyssey XT32 with Audyssey SUB EQ HT and you plan to get two JL-Audio subs, I'd recommend placing one in the center front, to the right of the center channel (snug up against it) and one in the center rear.
Then let Audyssey SUB EQ HT balance them out. That should give some pretty incredible bass performance with the quality necessary to match the CLX's.

Based on research around multiple subs, it's been found that those two locations can work very well, and now that the room corrector can blend in two independent subs, it should be even more accurate across a wider range of seats in the room.

JonFo said:

You are on the right track looking for a seriously sized center to mate with the CLX’s. I can say that none of the factory centers can do them justice.

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For sure none of the factory centers do the CLX's justice and while ML is in the process of releasing new speakers, a center to match the CLX is not in the works (unless it recently hit the drawing boards). For a couple of weeks, sometime back I used one of my Prodigy's as a center, and just played my 5.1 DVD-Audios and CD's using the Trifield setting on my Meridian. It was nice but alas I cannot watch movies in that configuration. While I was trying to get ML to build me a custom center, we did discuss ML selling me a single CLX so it can be done. For me, using a perferated screen even drop down would present issues in my room. I know you said the CLX center was probably out for budgetary reasons, however, if there is any way you can make the stretch given your plans, I would stretch. You mentioned the Stage for horizontal dispersion reasons. I have read a couple of white papers that made a pretty convincing arguements for a superior sound quality from a verticle speaker over an MTM style horizontal center. And while the Stage is not strictlly MTM I think you will get better results with a full range verticle. I would say Jonathan's recomendation of a single Spire makes good sense.

FWIW I use 4 subs in my Vegas system and cut all of my speakers off at 80 Hz. Hey I paid good money for those subs and I want them working. Besides, I like the results. I think the F113's are a great sub and will make you very happy. Here again Jonathan is spot on regarding the recommeded sub positioning for 2. If you ever get 4 subs put the other 2 midway up your side walls.

By the way, my speakers are 92 inches apart, 4.5 ft from the front wall and I am using a 106" wide Stewart screen. I can comfortably seat 3 in the front row without the speakers in the way. I would say mounting your 116 incher on the front wall would be within the realm of possibility.

Regards,
Gary

Just curious why would you have horizontal dispersion issues with the Stage? If anything you would have vertical, and even then when watching a movie you would be sitting in the "sweet spot" anyway.

i'm getting ready to finally but hammer to nail and set up the room, and it will include a Seymour AT screen. I'd been planning to use my Logos for the center channel, but this thread has me intrigued. would I be better off with a single panel center?

There is a single Quest-Z near me that I could probably get for $500 and it's a pretty good match for my CLS.

JordanD said:

Just curious why would you have horizontal dispersion issues with the Stage? If anything you would have vertical, and even then when watching a movie you would be sitting in the "sweet spot" anyway.

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I was meaning should I GET the Stage because of the possibility of it having *better* horizontal dispersion than the towers. I dont think it would, but was just checking...

Yep two subs put in those exact locations is what I was thinking. I will start keeping an eye on the used or demo / blemish Spire market.

GaryG said:

By the way, my speakers are 92 inches apart, 4.5 ft from the front wall and I am using a 106" wide Stewart screen. I can comfortably seat 3 in the front row without the speakers in the way. I would say mounting your 116 incher on the front wall would be within the realm of possibility.

Regards,
Gary

Click to expand...

The 116" wide screen is the screen I have now. It is a high power 16:9 screen. I want to go to 160" wide Enlightor 4k screen from http://www.seymourscreenexcellence.com/fixedframes.asp

hifiaudio2 said:

The 116" wide screen is the screen I have now. It is a high power 16:9 screen. I want to go to 160" wide Enlightor 4k screen from http://www.seymourscreenexcellence.com/fixedframes.asp

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Ooooh, impressive. I'm coming to your house for movies!

So if one already did have a pair of floor standing ML's to use for a center (for instance, I have a pair of SQL2 I would want to use for centers along with my ReQuest for the L&R), would that be better than using just 1 floor standing center?

I ask because yeah, IF you sat in the sweet spot it would be just fine using 1 center. But for the person sitting off center, it wouldn't sound correct. So I was thinking of having the 2 centers close to each other, but have them slightly angled outwards.

thoughs?

I am sitting next to an extra pair of Summits right now. You know you want them. One for front center, one for rear center. ;-)

Peter_Klim said:

So if one already did have a pair of floor standing ML's to use for a center (for instance, I have a pair of SQL2 I would want to use for centers along with my ReQuest for the L&R), would that be better than using just 1 floor standing center?

I ask because yeah, IF you sat in the sweet spot it would be just fine using 1 center. But for the person sitting off center, it wouldn't sound correct. So I was thinking of having the 2 centers close to each other, but have them slightly angled outwards.

thoughs?

Click to expand...

Actually you will be much better off using just one of your SQL2's as a center. If you split the signal and send it to two speakers a number of things will happen and most of them are bad (interference, lobing etc). The result will probably be poor imaging and some muddying of the sound. For someone sitting off center, they are already going to get a skew in the left, right channels which will have a greater effect than the center speaker. I didn't say you couldn't use more than one center with some success but it is not as simple as split and set. Your single SQL2 should work just fine and the good news is you will have a spare or a rear channel center. From what I have read I would say Jonathan is the resident expert on this subject.

Regards,
Gary

Peter, GaryG is definitely correct, you only want to use one center due to the interference artifacts Gary mentioned.

However, using a single vertical panel center does require a minimum distance between listeners and the speaker array.
In my experience, that is at least 9 or 10' from the center speaker. At that distance the audience will tend to be within the 30 degree spread from the center.

But totally key to that is the absorption of the back wave from the center (and L/R).

Jonathan - do you mean 9 or 10' instead of 9 or 10"

zaphod said:

Jonathan - do you mean 9 or 10' instead of 9 or 10"

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Oops, I meant feet. Good catch Zaphod.