Summit vs. Summit x

spectral said:

Crossover and electronics can have an effect on overall sound anywhere in the spectrum - they are, after all, in series with the signal. Therefore, my guess is that, when they talk about the "panel" they are referring to the sound coming out of the panel, as a result of the changes in the guts of the X, not the panel itself.

Therefore, it's conceivable that the soundstage be wider, depending on the effects of whatever is in the path is or is not having on the signal... For example, I've had wider but more diffuse, less 3D soundstage in the past in my system from older equipment I used to own, driving the same Odysseys; someone was clearly playing tricks. And long ago when working with DIY crossover projects, the effects of capacitors on the sound was simply immense, and easily demonstrated by replacing one capacitor value with multiple in parallel - the sound would simply collapse with three or more. This was because you can't rely on all capacitors charging and discharging all together at the same time. This is just an example of crossover interference to the overall sound and an extreme case at that, but it does easily showcase why crossovers are so undesirable and hard to design properly.

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Thank you for your clarification, it certainly makes sense.

spectral said:

Crossover and electronics can have an effect on overall sound anywhere in the spectrum - they are, after all, in series with the signal. Therefore, my guess is that, when they talk about the "panel" they are referring to the sound coming out of the panel, as a result of the changes in the guts of the X, not the panel itself.

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Now that could very well be the case. If the electronics and crossover are much improved over the original, I expect that could account for better detail retrieval, wider soundstage, etc.

After messing around with my Apogee crossovers, changing inductors and resistors, I can confirm that x-overs make a lot of difference. You can directly alter the frequency response of the speaker, alter the load the amp sees etc. You also get into "nonsense" territory, where inductors of the same rating (in Henries) sound markedly different to each other. You look at the inductor and realise it is just a piece of coiled wire.

Black art, maybe.

User211 said:

You also get into "nonsense" territory, where inductors of the same rating (in Henries) sound markedly different to each other. You look at the inductor and realise it is just a piece of coiled wire.

Black art, maybe.

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Justin, surely you mean milliHenries. :devil:

Bernard said:

Justin, surely you mean milliHenries. :devil:

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If Justin were designing a multi-pole crossover that included eight inductors... would the last one be "Henry the 8th"?

User211 said:

After messing around with my Apogee crossovers, changing inductors and resistors, I can confirm that x-overs make a lot of difference. You can directly alter the frequency response of the speaker, alter the load the amp sees etc. You also get into "nonsense" territory, where inductors of the same rating (in Henries) sound markedly different to each other. You look at the inductor and realise it is just a piece of coiled wire.

Black art, maybe.

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Actually, this is not black art at all... it is exactly science and engineering. Lately, I've been having lengthy conversations with folks at Spectral about their choice of various parts. The response is consistent and sensible - one must understand the characteristics and behavior of every single part in the proposed design, before the design can materialize - characteristics that include the usual RLC measurements, but also thermal behavior (e.g. thermal storage), interference, etc. Then one must understand the interactions between all these parts (hence topology differences), and go from there.

So for example, their power supply capacitors are chosen small to discharge faster in order to support the ultra fast circuits; this requires super fast and larger transformers. All the way to that "box" in the Spectral/MIT speaker cables, whose sole purpose of existence is to house a stabilization output circuit similar to the ubiquitous output inductor, because their amps feature no such inductor - and they don't have it because of the unwanted magnetic fields it generates with the significant amperage generated by the output stage, so they moved that "part" out of the box.

Another example is the Berkeley Alpha DAC - one of the reasons it was not available in Europe for some time was the RoHS regulations prohibiting lead in solder, and they couldn't find replacement solder that sounded as good as the one used in the US. This is what fanatical, detailed engineering is all about.

So it's conceivable that ML have gone to similar extremes in the X's electronics and crossover, for what I continue to regard as one of the very few speaker bargains currently in the market (and is the reason I am considering it). I gotta say this again - my A/B next to the Magico Q5 was an eye opener for me, not only because it's so close to it in many respects, but because it also surpasses it in some others. I think the X is a stunning achievement of a speaker. As I and others have contended in the past, panel size usually matters in image size - this speaker somehow produces images that are not smaller as you'd expect from the panel's overall smaller size over, say, the Odysseys or Prodigies.

I just purchased a a pair of Summits two days ago. I thought they were Summit X because I didn't read closely enough. Since I've upgraded from Vandersteen 2, I'm overjoyed. I also got an excellent price, But this thread has me intrigued. I currently am using Sonic Frontiers Power 3 monoblocks with Soic Frontiers SFL-1 and SFP-1 line and phono stage preamps. I love the sound so far. Thanks for the great information. I have a lot to learn.

danoman03 said:

I just purchased a a pair of Summits two days ago. I thought they were Summit X because I didn't read closely enough. Since I've upgraded from Vandersteen 2, I'm overjoyed. I also got an excellent price, But this thread has me intrigued. I currently am using Sonic Frontiers Power 3 monoblocks with Soic Frontiers SFL-1 and SFP-1 line and phono stage preamps. I love the sound so far. Thanks for the great information. I have a lot to learn.

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I switched from the Summit to Vivid Audio Giya G3 and never looked back. I was contemplating the Summit X but felt that bass integration would still be an issue - with the Giya, I found music to be presented very coherently.